Raga and indian music theory

[Werner Jaekel]

Hi, I am currently working on this for my mandola. Is the anyone sharing this interest ?

[DavidKOS]

I've been playing mandolin in Indian-Pakistani-Afghan styles for some time now.

Do a search on the forum - there have been several threads on this subject over the years.

[CWRoyds]

I play Classical Indian Sitar, and love Indian Classical Music, although mostly Hindustani.
When I started learning Mandolin I loved trying to transfer a raga to it from my sitar knowledge.
The fifths tuning make it pretty easy to map out ragas I know on the fretboard.
For me it was more a theoretical exercise.

The acoustic mandolin is not ideal for Hindustani Classical Raga, as the sustain isn't really sufficient, and you can't perform Meend (string bending), which is really important to Hindustani music.

The electric mandolins they use in Carnatic music work well for that genre.
Carnatic music relies more on ornaments like gamakas, which a mandolin can do. It is easy to slide on those mandolins to play a similar style to that of the traditional Veena. They actually end up being fairly close in tone quality to a traditional Carnatic Veena.

For Ragas I will stick to the Sitar, as it is an amazing instrument for Hindustani music.
You can meend up to 7 notes on one fret, sometimes playing entire melodies from that single fret.
Sitars are cool.

[DavidKOS]

.

The acoustic mandolin is not ideal for Hindustani Classical Raga, as the sustain isn't really sufficient, and you can't perform Meend (string bending), which is really important to Hindustani music.

Yes the sitar is a cool instrument.

However, artists like Snehasish Mozumder have worked out ways to fake gamaka like meend, and the results are pretty impressive.

Is it a substitute for the sitar or sarod? No, but it is a cool use of mandolin.

He does some in this video:



BTW, I've studies sitar and sarod but these days play the Afghan robab more than the other instruments.



Another interesting approach by Gagandeep Singh.

BTW, the Afghans love the mandolin too.

[CWRoyds]

Yup, cool use of the mandolin for sure.
I like what Gagandeep Singh is doing.
He gets a lovely tone in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfc6HlXsKw0

There are other unique instruments in Hindustani music, that are not necessarily ideal, that work too.
Shiv Kumar is excellent on the Santoor, which can not meend and has limited sustain.

I didn't mean to sound like you can't use a mandolin for Hindustani music, just that it is theoretically not ideal.
This is probably why there are very few mandolin players in Hindustani music.
The carnatic style is definitely more easily accessible to a mandolinist.

It is always interesting to see musicians adjust techniques to take the instrument places it hasn't been before.

[DavidKOS]

I didn't mean to sound like you can't use a mandolin for Hindustani music, just that it is theoretically not ideal.
This is probably why there are very few mandolin players in Hindustani music.
The carnatic style is definitely more easily accessible to a mandolinist.

It is always interesting to see musicians adjust techniques to take the instrument places it hasn't been before.

Yeah, for North Indian CLASSICAL music the mandolin is not ideal, as the music was designed for sitar, sarod, sarangi, etc.

The folkloric music of the region is another thing, and often much more accessible than the classical music.

Also, the mandolin has been used extensively in filmi music, and is a very popular sound in that genre.

[Werner Jaekel]

Thank You! To me a surprising response. Thanks again.

My experience so far is: I bought a Sitar in Dehli, turned out it is not the quality they said but a normal one. So far it is decorating the room. I also bought a book "Pankaj Leran to play on the sitar Ram Avtar "Vir", also "The Hundred Coller" (Sarangi)with alot of theory and conversion to our system. With the help of this book I would be able to do a setup. I should have been done in situ but we were in a hurry. Someday I will.

For now I want to use my Weber mandola. I am looking for strings which eanable me to do nice slides without scratching and squeaking.

http://raag-hindustani.com/Scales1.html
I found this.

I was reading that they don't play from the sheet but internalise the stanzas, but study notes for learning.

I am looking for raga scores and sheetmusic to have a start.

With Chupke Chupke and Chhitti Aayi Hai which are more folksongs, but ok for mandolin or mandola. Play by ear for a start.

https://youtu.be/nJekm-SLuW8
https://soundcloud.com/mandola-joy?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_campaign=share&utm_m edium=pinterest

https://soundcloud.com/mandola-joy/r...dium=pinterest

Attached files by "Ghazal"

[Ronny]

Some years ago, I began to play indian music with a sitar player. I wrote down some data I find from the internet and other books (Ravi Shankar autobiography and some other books) to have a clean reference guide. It's in the attachment. But it's in French...

[Werner Jaekel]

Great, Thank You. My French is a bit rusty but will do.

A first browse , it is very useful and interesting. Indian music has it's very unique charme.

Love it.

Do you know of any written notation to follow ?

Do you play the mandolin ?

[CWRoyds]

Do you know of any written notation to follow ?

Although there is a notation for Classical Indian Music, it is very limited as to what it can impart about a raga. It is usually used to just give you a simple guide to a Gat (a melody or set of phrases used in a Raga performance). The Alaap, a long introduction to the raga, outlining the phrases that frame the Raga, is completely improvised.

Indian notation is similar to western solfège.
Instead of Do Re Me, it is Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Dha Ni Sa. (Sa being the root, Pa is the fifth).
I attached below is a picture of a simple Gat for Raga Bhimpalasi that I did for my teachers book some years ago.

Carnatic music from the south relies far more on set compositions, as well as improvisation.
Hindustani music from the north is much more improvisational in performance.
A Hindustani Classica Raga is not a written composition.
A raga is rendered live from the well of your knowledge of a Raga's scales, phrases, moods, ornaments, etc., and a performance of a Raga by a musician can vary widely from performance to performance. Panditi Ravi Shankar stated that Raga performance is about 90% improvised.
This is why Indian music takes so long to learn.
In Hindustani music, it can take years to truly internalize the knowledge need to perform just one raga adequately.

In Indian music a teacher is a must, especially at the beginning (IMHO).
It would be nearly impossible to explore it correctly on ones own.
There are books that can help, but a good teacher siting across from you is the best way.
The genre is quite small, so you can often learn from one of the great musicians.
I have taken lessons from some of the best musicians, and some being the students of the Primary "Greats" of ICM.
It is fun to learn something that came straight from Pandit Ravi Shankar, or from my ultimate favorite sitarist Nikhil Banerjee.

Here is an example of ICM notation.
You can think of it as 4 beats per bar, similar to western notation

[Werner Jaekel]

Thank You.

Is my interpretation correct?

Bb and C# ? Understroke =diminished , but understroke plus dot ? Dot above = augmented

I will certainly not become another Nikhil Banerjee, as much as I wished I could.

To explore this wonderful music and to benefit a little bit in my improvisation, to play some beautiful lines and to understand how they evoke this inexplicable feeling to me is enough. To me this music is close to meditation and implicit states of the mind.

I believe this is what they are doing, acting subconsciously. Truly improvisation.

I play the Weber Yellowstone A4 mandola and a Collings MT2 mandolin. Can you recommend strings to perform a clean and appropriate slide ?

Do they cover the soundhole of their mandolas?

Sa being the root, Pa is the fifth

Does the Circle of fifths mean anything in this genre ?

Thank you, again.

[CWRoyds]

It doesn’t have to be in C#, but that is the common tuning for the sitar.
It is all relative to whatever Sa you use.
I tune my sitar to 30 cents below D.
It just sounds best on my sitar.

The Sa (Root) in Indian Classical Music is relative to the instrument or what it is tuned to.
It doesn’t really matter what Sa you start from.
You could play in C, or A, or G, or any root note.

Usually the instrument is based in a root Sa, with strings tuned to Sa or Pa.
On a sitar, the main strings are either the root of fifth, except the top string that you play most of the melodies on, which is tuned to Ma (4th).
I believe most mandolinists in ICM are tuned “root, 5th, root, 5th”. (Sa Pa Sa Pa)


As for the notation example:
The straight line under a note denotes a flattened note.
In that example, Bhimpalasi has a flattened 3rd (Ga), and flattened 7th (Ni)

The dot underneath or above, denotes the octave.
Sa with a dot above is the octave above, and dot below is an octave below.
A double dot would be two octaves above or below the Sa



I apologize, as I realize my previous posts were frustratingly unhelpful to your quest.
I was explaining why it was difficult to adapt mandolin to ICM, but didn’t answer the question.

One book that is useful for a comfortable overview of Indian Classical Music and Raga is “My Music My Life” by Pandit Ravi Shankar. The book is really beautiful. The first half is about his life and the world of Indian Classical music, with beautiful pictures. The second half of the book is an overview of Raga, including explanations, exercises, Gat compositions, Trans, Ornaments, etc. I think they have Indian Sargam notation as well as western notation. It is made for sitar, but can be adapted to any Sa, on any instrument. It is a good read and a useful entry point into the music.
https://www.amazon.com/My-Music-Life.../dp/1601090056

Another great book for a more in depth start into this music is Ali Akbar Khan’s Book.
“Classical Music of North India, the First Years of Study”: The Music of the Baba Allauddin Gharana As Taught by Ali Akbar Khan at the Ali Akbar College of Music
https://www.amazon.com/Classical-Mus.../dp/812150872X

You can actually take Skype lessons at the Ali Akbar College of Music in San Rafael.
You can watch group classes and talk to the teacher, or I believe you can take private lessons.
They will teach you on whatever instrument you play.
http://www.aacm.org/online_classes.html

The truth is that it doesn’t really matter what instrument you play.
An Indian musician can teach you to play raga even if they don’t play your instrument.
They just teach you Raga by singing it or playing it, and you follow and adapt it to your instrument. Baba Allauddin Khan was the teacher of Ravi Shankar and Ali Akbar Khan, as well as many other musicians on a wide variety of instruments.
The reason Ravi Shankar’ style is different from other sitarists is because Allauddin Khan was a Rudra Veena player and a Supremely skilled Sarod player. The style he taught Ravi Shankar was deeply rooted in the Rudra Veena and Drupad.

I can send you more from that book i did the notation for, but I think these other books are highly polished and are excellent.

It is very interesting to study these musics, but they are VAST subjects, and are much less accessible than learning to play western music. ICM requires years of dedicated Riyaz (practice).
For me, playing the sitar is truly a passion for that instrument and the music, BUT I never expect to be very good, certainly not good enough to play Classical Raga publicly as a performer. It really does take many years of constant practice to be any good. I go in waves. For a few years I get really into it and practice a couple hours a day, but then I will fail in the dedication and go light on it for a while. It is very very hard to keep up the rigorous practice needed for ICM. I try, but often fail to keep it up. And it aint like riding a bike. You have to keep it up.

Indian music is a very free music in terms of its improvisational nature, BUT that improvisation is contained an a very very strict confines of a Raga’s structure and rules. Each raga is a deep ocean of information that needs to be absorbed from a teacher, and from listening to performances of each raga from many great musicians.

I listen to a bunch of different musicians playing the raga I am learning.
I listen to Vocal performances first, as that is the root of Indian music.
Most indian instruments developed from the desire to simulate the qualities of a Vocal performance. Sitar bends the notes to allow vocal lines, and Sarod has a fretless neck allowing sliding from note to note for similar effect.
Then I will listen to my favorite sitarist versions.
Then any great Sarod performances of that Raga.
Then I go for anything I can find. Could be Rudra Veena, bansuri, Saranghi, etc.

It is a seductive genre, but it is a difficult process.
I encourage the exploration of it.
When I got a sense of the depth of what I would have to learn, it scared me much more than when I started looking into the depths of heavy BeBop Jazz. It is just so vast and complicated.
It certainly is satisfying though when you start to “get it”, even if it is just for one Raga.

Check out those books.
And Start with Raga Yaman.

[Werner Jaekel]

“...My approach to music is very deep. I do not compromise. Indian music is based on spiritualism and was practiced and learned to know the Supreme Truth. A musician must lift up the souls of the listeners and take them towards Space. This is the history of Indian music... ” --- Pandit Nikhil Banerjee (1931-1986)

Yes



CWRoyds Thank you for your time and effort to explain this vast subject to a sort of dyslexic in this genre with words so appropriate.

Many years I admire this culture and sense exactly what you are describing in a raga.
Being familiar with Hindi and Theravada philosophy through some travels makes a small difference to get closer.

I will get those books.

I bought the Weber Yellowstone for this purpose, but being a painting artist with dozens of unfinished canvasses pilling up for exhibition there is simply not enough time to do it right. Oil is such a slow medium.



beautiful



https://musescore.com/user/15979296/scores/3323731

[CWRoyds]

To me, Nikhil Banerjee is the greatest Sitarist who ever lived, and also one of the greatest musicians who ever lived, regardless of genre or instrument. His music is so incredibly rich and deep. It is almost superhuman at times. Anyone interested in ICM should listen to him as much as possible. I have taken lessons from his former assistant/pupil Partha Chatterjee. I loved getting the knowledge of his style directly from his lineage. My regular teacher was a 20 year disciple of Pandit Ravi Shankar. I was very lucky to get to meet him. That was an experience.

When trying to get a feel for a raga, I suggest always looking for a performance or recording of the great vocalist Amir Khan. His renderings of ragas are considered perfection and a standard to follow regardless of instrument. Nikhil Banerjee was a huge fan of Amir Khan and learned from him whoever he could.

[DavidKOS]

To me, Nikhil Banerjee is the greatest Sitarist who ever lived, and also one of the greatest musicians who ever lived, regardless of genre or instrument.

He was a great player!

I'm also fond of Vilayat Khan too.

[CWRoyds]

He was a great player!

I'm also fond of Vilayat Khan too.

Yup, Vilayat Khan was an astounding sitarist.
Truly one of the greatest.
His style was very different from that of Pandit Ravi Shankar and Nikhil banerjee.
Vilayat Khan was from the Indadkhani etawah gharana.
Ravi Shankar and Nikhil Banerjee were from the Seni-Maihar Gharana.
A gharana is basically a "school" or "house" of a certain style, usually dominated by a family.

I love both Vilayat Khan and Pandit Ravi Shankar, but for me personally, Nikhil Banerjee's style just grabs my soul.
His style is so bold, solid, and deep.
I can listen to him all day and never get bored.

For those who haven't seen them play, here are a few videos.
Very different styles, but all supreme in themselves.

Nikhil Banerjee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT_BVK_Q6i8

Vilayat Khan
https://vimeo.com/30727719

Ravi Shankar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-ijCe1xRWQ


Just for interest's sake, here is a link to pictures of my own sitars.
I figure people here love instruments, so why not show them.
The one I use as my main instrument is the Teak Hiren Roy.
It is an astounding instrument.
Every time one of my teachers comes from india, he tries to get me to sell it to him.
He says, "This sitar is my expression. You can hear every grain of wood"...
The Kanai Lal Esraj is not mine, but the rest are.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/carletonroyds/albums

[Werner Jaekel]

This one I bought in Dehli, last night before departure after a weeks long trek around the north of India. In the lodge I surprised my wife saying I want a Sitar. Didn't know anything about it and blindly stumpled into the common trap. At home I learned about my mistakes and that this often happens.

I learned that this is a basic type but ok for a start. Inquiring further I was told a professional setup costs 200 €. As much as I should have paid for it.

Your instruments are wonderful, literally full of wonders. More and more I am turning to this genre, having done so many treks around Asia absorbing this spitit.

So now at last I will go about it seriously. Better late than never.

This music is a great inspiration for arts. Improvisation following the subconcious mind , full with endless variety of shades and hues where all and everything is interdependant and connected.

To express this in a painting without getting sobby soggy boggy kitschy is a challenge. A question of tonalities.

Good thing I started this thread, I find.

[DavidKOS]

me personally, Nikhil Banerjee's style just grabs my soul.
His style is so bold, solid, and deep.
I can listen to him all day and never get bored.

One of my friends was studying at the original location of the Ali Akbar Khan school when instead of the usual sarod group lesson, Khansahib says "We're going to listen to a friend of mine play sitar".

They went into the next room and it was Nikhil Banerjee!

My friend said it was the best sitar music he ever heard, before or since.

[CWRoyds]

It happens to a lot of people.
They go to india and buy a sitar, which looks cool, but is a fairly pedestrian market sitar.
Most sitars readily available in india are less than ideal.
Even the known stores keep the good stuff in the back for Indian performers.
The tourists are sold common instruments.

Then again, sometimes these market sitars are OK to start on.
They just tend to not have very much volume or sustain.
Sometimes a good jawari bridge carving can help make them a lot better.
Like with a mandolin, a good setup is everything.
On a sitar the carving of a bridge is an art form in itself.
There are only a few people here in the USA that can do it adequately.

For Jawari bridge carving I use Scott Hackleman in Washington.
http://www.hacklemanshop.com
He is a masterful craftsman and studied at the Kartar Chand shop in India for a year.
He wrote a great paper on sitar making for The Guild of American Luthiers.
http://www.hacklemanshop.com/uploads...tar_making.pdf

You can also use Tony Karasek, who is masterful as well.
He used to travel with Pandit Ravi Shankar, keeping his sitars in perfect order.
He does amazing Jawari, and also builds his own incredible sitars.
His website has a lovely museum section showing a ton of the finest vintage sitars.
http://www.karaseksound.com

There is also Kalyan at the Musicians Mall in Berkeley.
https://www.musiciansmallusa.com/repair/

For buying a high quality sitar, I would buy from Rain City Music.
http://www.raincitymusic.com
The owner Lars travels to India regularly and hand picks the best ones he finds.
He has everything from very inexpensive student sitars, up to very fine professional sitar.
He makes sure they are all set up and sounding as good as they can before shipping.
As with mandolins, the more expensive sitars are certainly leaps and bounds above the cheaper ones.

Luckily sitars are remarkably cheap compared to mandolins.
You can get a wonderful Hiren Roy for $2,000-3,000.
Hiren Roy was one the greatest sitar makers of the last century.
You can find vintage ones, and also brand new ones from his son Barun.
Nikhil Banerjee played a Hiren Roy, as do I.

I actually found my Hiren Roy on Craigslist for $500.
It was a bit like finding a Lloyd Loar being sold by someone who doesn't know what they have.
It had been sitting in a closet for 20 years, and after Scott Hackleman cleaned it and set it up, it was magical.
I found that stunning Naskar sitar on eBay for $1000
The other Naskar I found on eBay for $300.
The eBay thing can be hit or miss, as you never know what you will get.
Like mandos, unless you play it, how can you know.
Even a nice looking Gibson can be a log.

There is a very useful Forum for general ICM and the sitar, sarod, tabla, etc.
As with MandolinCafe.com, it is a place to ask about Instruments, Ragas, etc.
https://forum.chandrakantha.com

[CWRoyds]

One of my friends was studying at the original location of the Ali Akbar Khan school when instead of the usual sarod group lesson, Khansahib says "We're going to listen to a friend of mine play sitar".

They went into the next room and it was Nikhil Banerjee!

My friend said it was the best sitar music he ever heard, before or since.

That is so cool.
I would give anything to have been able to hear Nikhil Banerjee play live.
He just slays it every time.
There is just something so accessible about his playing.
You get drawn in and surrounded.

I was lucky to be able to take lessons from his longtime assistant/pupil Partha Chatterjee.
His son Purbayan Chatterjee is a very prominent player these days.
I was nice to be able to ask questions of someone who knew him so well.
I was getting knowledge from as close to the source as possible.
I indian music, the closer to the source you go, the more pure the info is.

[DavidKOS]

It happens to a lot of people.
They go to india and buy a sitar, which looks cool, but is a fairly pedestrian market sitar.
Most sitars readily available in india are less than ideal.
Even the known stores keep the good stuff in the back for Indian performers.
The tourists are sold common instruments.

Most sitar makers get pre made instruments from Miraj, where the gourds are grown, and do the final setup and call it theirs.

The better makers, like Hiren Roy, Rikhi Ram, etc. make their own from top to bottom.

https://www.musiciansmallusa.com/guide-to-makers/

[CWRoyds]

Most sitar makers get pre made instruments from Miraj, where the gourds are grown, and do the final setup and call it theirs.

The better makers, like Hiren Roy, Rikhi Ram, etc. make their own from top to bottom.

https://www.musiciansmallusa.com/guide-to-makers/

Historically, this was true.
Today, more and more makers are relying more on the prebuilt base neck, tomba, etc.
It is cheaper for them to do this.
Carving is farmed out too, a lot of the time.
They probably carve the Tabli (top) and do the final finish and setup, but the body, pegs, carving and inlay is usually farmed out.

In the old days, Kanai Lal and Hiren Roy made instruments totally from scratch.
Kanai Lal did all of the carving and inlay in house, as they were masters of the art.
Unfortunately the great shops are all closing.
Barun Roy is basically retired, only making select instruments from his house, so soon there will be no more new Hiren Roy sitars.
Kanai Lal closed a long time ago, leaving Rudra Veena players wondering where they will get instruments in the future.

FYI, "Kanai Lal and Brother" should not be confused with the currently active "Kanai Lal and Sons".
They have no connection to one another.
Kanai Lal and Brother made some of the finest instruments in the history of Indian music.
Kanai Lal and Hiren Roy were the Stradivarius and Del Gesu of Indian instrument making.
The active Kanai Lal and Sons make decent student instruments, with a few nice ones by chance, but are fairly pedestrian instruments when compared to the old masters.

Hemen Sen died recently, so no more fine Hemen Sarods and Sitars.
I honestly don't know where sarod players will get a good sarod now.
Hemen was the finest sarod ever.
Nothing like a fine one piece Hemen sarod.

Rikhi Ram still makes a fine sitar when they want to, but they usually go to the students of Pandit Ravi Shankar or the like. Raviji's daughter Anoushka usually plays a high end Rikhi Ram these days. It sounds pretty good, but they made it for HER, so they obviously pulled out all the stops for her sitar.
They also sell less than ideal instruments that are not "ground up" builds.
I am not even certain if their best sitars are fully made by them.
If you go into the shop as a tourist, most likely you will not be buying their best, unless you go in with a renowned player that they recognize. The best are in the back of the shop.

There are some good young builders coming out of Miraj these days, but no one has yet come to the standard set by the elder Hiren Roy or Kanai Lal.
I bought a sitar from a current Miraj builder, and it is very nicely built.
It just doesn't have the tone or subtlety of the elder builders.
The carving doesn't compare either.

Oddly some of the most awesome less expensive sitars you can find are from the old Pakistani makers.
If you see a vintage Sher Mohammad, Mohan Singh or Gurdial Singh, buy it.
They are light and resonant, with beautiful tone.
They show up on craigslist and eBay occasionally.
The Pakistani sitar style is much more simple than the Indian style, but they just sound great. They tend to be less expensive as they are less decorated, lighter build, and are not usually as loud as the Indian ones.
Here is a Sher Mohammad.
http://www.sitarfactory.be/2011/sher...vintage-sitar/

My favorite sitars of all time are the ones made for Pandit Ravi Shankar by Nodu Mullick.
The sitars were actually built by Kanai Lal and Brother, but Nodu took them and opened them up, recarved the top, carved out inside the neck, and spend several years with scalpels receiving the intricate carving on the tabli and back of the body. They are some of the most beautiful instruments ever made, and their tone can be witnessed on all the early sitar recordings by Pandit Ravi Shankar. I believe Raviji's last playable Nodu was put away for good in the 1980s. It needed work, but the repair job ruined the instrument, and the refinish job was apparently shamefully terrible. You can still see the Nodu Sitars in an upper hallway at the Ravi Shankar center in India, along with his Surbahar.

Just for interest, here are some pictures of what I believe to be the most stunning sitar ever made. This is one of Raviji's Nodu sitars. The carving is just unbelievably stunning.
This is the Nodu I love. I lust for this sitar like people lust for a signed Loar.



These pictures are from Karaseksound.com. Tony Karasek has a photo museum of some of the greatest or most interesting instruments that come through his shop over the years. There are five pages of awesome instruments, including sitars, surbahars, Rudra Veena, etc.
http://www.karaseksound.com/SearchMu...=1&RecsPage=10

There were a lot of really great makers in the past.
I am always amazed by the carving on my old Naskar sitar.
It had no badge when I got it, and several knowledgeable people said it had to be Kanai Lal because of the level of the carving and details. In the end we figured from the badge holes and other clues that it is actually Naskar, but the quality speaks for itself.
Here is my Naskar, probably from the early 70s.
Be sure to check out the carving on the back.
It is stunning.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/carlet...57618712400653

Anyhoo, I am rambling.
I love to talk about sitars, and rarely get a chance.
The genre is so small and the interest so rare, that one doesn't often come across people who want to know about them.
I recently went into a famous super high end guitar store here in LA and happen to have my beautiful Hiren Roy sitar with me. I was getting work done on a cheaper mandolin, so I didn't care who did the work.
The repair man asked what was in the case.
I said "It is a very fine Sitar by Hiren Roy. Would you like to see it??"...
He shrugged his shoulders and said "No, that's OK"...
What instrument maker/repair guy wouldn't want to see a fine sitar, just to see???
I thought it was crazy.
On the way out the owner said, "Is that a sitar?"
I said, "Yes, it is a very fine one. Would you like to see??"
He shrugged his shoulders and said, "OK, I guess".... ??????
I didn't understand it at all.
I love all instruments and will always want to see what ever you have.

[catmandu2]

I have this resource:

Https://www.google.com/search?q=lear...HRTRgQbMxOtOM:

...six cassettes of aural instruction by Ravi.

Wonderful reading on this thread. I totally concur with the seductiveness of ICM. I fell in love upon seeing Shakti long ago, then Shivkumar Sharma.. but as CWR mentions the challenge of intense sustained commitment, I couldn't maintain focus long enough for requisite study while I was equally seduced by other forms (my interest in Arabic maqam, and especially TCM). The music, the instruments - I'm nearly as compelled by their aesthetic visual form. Long ago my heart was captivated by such instruments - having owned a copy of "The Ten Graces Played on the Vina"... now I'm captivated by guzheng and TCM.

[Werner Jaekel]

Please have a look and tell me what you think about it

Thank you

[CWRoyds]

I have this resource:

Https://www.google.com/search?q=lear...HRTRgQbMxOtOM:

...six cassettes of aural instruction by Ravi.

Wonderful reading on this thread. I totally concur with the seductiveness of ICM. I fell in love upon seeing Shakti long ago, then Shivkumar Sharma.. but as CWR mentions the challenge of intense sustained commitment, I couldn't maintain focus long enough for requisite study while I was equally seduced by other forms (my interest in Arabic maqam, and especially TCM). The music, the instruments - I'm nearly as compelled by their aesthetic visual form. Long ago my heart was captivated by such instruments - having owned a copy of "The Ten Graces Played on the Vina"... now I'm captivated by guzheng and TCM.

I have not seen or heard that book and cassettes from Pandit Ravi Shankar.
I bet it is very interesting.
He was a great teacher.
Part of his gift was to be able to explain ICM to a western audience without taxing their brains with the minutia.
His book “My Music My Life” is a great place to start.
I would think that the audio tapes would be useful, as it is much easier to understand some of the concepts when explained by a voice, with musical examples given. I did not find a copy for purchase though. Seems to be out of print. Some are available in libraries, so there is always that.

When I started learning sitar, I had much better results from recording my lessons and reliving them at home to learn, than going by just the written notation examples.
As I stated before, the notation is severely limited in what it can provide you in terms of Raga information.

I also came to Classical Indian Music through Shakti and Mahavishnu Orchestra music.
I am a guitarist historically, and John McLaughlin was my hero.
I got all excited to learn the sitar, but was surprised to find out that Shakti and Mahavishnu was mainly inspired by south Indian Carnatic music, as opposed to the Hindustani North Indian music that is played on the sitar, sarod, etc.
John McLaughlin studied the South Indian Veena, and not the sitar.
Carnatic music is very different from Hindustani music.

Like I was saying earlier, the Mandolin fits quite well in Carnatic Music.
U. Shrivinas was an astonishing mandolinist in Carnatic music.
Here is a video of U. Shrivinas absolutely killing it even as a young child.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H07Yqe5-daU

The adult U Shrivinas continued to be extraordinary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgG4FiBPw48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnaXpZ5SnW4

McLaughlin fit quite well into the genre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA7Mzo73cd4

I came to mandolin in a similar way that you are coming to Indian music.
You get seduced by and instrument or genre of music, and it sucks you in.
I got seduced by the pop and tone of mandolin, and then got sucked into bluegrass.
I was lucky in that I already knew all the theory needed for Bluegrass, and knew how to play violin, so mandolin followed quite easily.
I just had to submerge myself in the music to get the subtleties and vocabulary of Bluegrass.
For me, it was not a foreign language.
It was just like a different accent of English.
I am well versed in Rock, blues, Jazz, etc., which are just a skip away from bluegrass.

Indian music on the other hand was a chore to dive into.
I realized early on that none of my former knowledge would help at all.
The only thing that was relevant was knowing how scales work.
Other than that, It was like starting to learn a completely different language all together.
It was actually a bit disheartening.
The farther I dove into it, the deeper the well got, until I realized the well is bottomless, and even the great masters never saw the bottom. ICM is a lifelong journey that never ends.
The practice never ends.
Nikhil Banerjee used to practice religiously every day for 6 hours.
When they studied under Baba Allauddin Khan in Maihar, Ravi Shankar and Nikhil Banerjee would spend 15 hours a day practicing.
Life was practice, eat, practice, eat, sleep... repeat...

These days I practice and play the sitar simply for the joy of the sound, and the pleasure of playing Raga.
It is incredibly satisfying music when you start to actually understand Raga, and can render one adequately.
BUT it is not like riding a bike... If you don't play for a while, it seems it all leaves your fingers.
I can pick up a guitar or mandolin after months of no practice and still jam quite well.
With sitar, not so much.
Oh well, I will always be a sitarist, but I will never be a performing sitarist.
One has to be quite advanced and good to be accepted by the ICM listening audience.
One thing about Indian Music is that those who know it well can know your skill from the first few moments.
They know your level of "talim" (rigorous practice and study) as it is very obvious from just a bit of Alaap.
When I hear a sitarist start to perform, I know pretty quick if he actually knows what he is doing, and is worth listening to.
Unfortunately a lot of "sitarists" you hear on youtube etc. are actually just people noodling on a sitar.
They don't actually know a thing about Raga or ICM.
Those guys I can usually spot before they even strike a note.