Tale of woe: Guitar Center and a blacktop snakehead

[mrmando]

I snagged a black 1924 Gibson snakehead A1 mandolin on GuitarCenter.com for what looked like a pretty good deal: hundreds below market value. I planned on flipping it for a decent if not spectacular profit.

The UPS box arrives; I pick it up to take it downstairs and feel the contents shift inside the box. Uh-oh.

I open the box and there is some padding inside, consisting of the large air-filled rectangular plastic bubbles you'll get if you order from Amazon or some other big online retailers. But there aren't enough of these to entirely immobilize the case within the box. I get the case out and open it, and there's no padding inside the case to immobilize the headstock.

Still, the mandolin looks pretty good apart from one missing string, which has been missing so long that the corresponding tuner bushing fell out, evidently long ago, and is now gone. All the other original hardware is there and in good shape. There isn't much wear to speak of. I'm getting excited. I replace the missing string, shoot some photos and then take the mandolin inside to write up a Reverb listing. While inspecting it more closely, I first take notice of ...

the crack in the back of the neck. Not all the way to the fretboard, but plenty long and plenty deep. It's still tight and very much a hairline, so I'm guessing the crack is more recent than the cruddy old Black Diamond strings. I can't be certain that it was damaged in shipping, but given the way the instrument was packed I sure can't rule it out. In this condition the mandolin is worth hundreds less than I paid. I know luthiers who could glue that crack up and make it invisible, but even with repair it's probably still not worth what I spent on it, and all thoughts of profit were gone.

I sadly returned it to the local Guitar Center. I don't know what they will do with it, but at least it's not my problem.

Serial number 75163; FON 11952. If it shows up on Guitar Center's site again I'll post it below, and caveat emptor.

[mrmando]

Wow, here it is, already back online at the same price I paid for it. Obviously no consideration has been given to repairing it.
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/Gib...in-Mandolin.gc

[multidon]

I had a similar experience, except for me it was a mountain dulcimer. They rarely appear at Guitar Center but it does occasionally happen. This one was a rare and unusual model, very underpriced and made of beautifully figured old growth koa wood. The wood alone in today's dollars would cost 3 times what they were asking for the dulcimer. I called the store where the dulcimer was located and got an in hand description, was told it was "perfect" (the pictures on the website bore that out) and I made the purchase, arranging to have it shipped to my local store, so that I could return it right then and there if need be. I emphasized the necessity of packing it well because of the fragility of koa and that the instrument had no case. I was assured that the guy at the store who does the packing does an "awesome" job. When the dulcimer arrived at my local store, I went to look at it. When I saw the box it was packed in my heart sank. It was in a box that had previously held an ekectric bass, very thin. Inside there was only one layer of bubble wrap to cushion it. Still, I hoped for the best. Unfortunately, upon opening the box, I discovered a section of the beautiful bookmatched koa back was broken and pushed inwards, obviously from a blow. The sight of this upset me so much it made me physically ill. I reported this to the store manager and he was very apologetic, giving me an immediate refund. I later saw on the GC website that the dulcimer was re-listed for sale, only at my local store. Same price, same "great" condition, even re-using the old pre-damage pictures! A couple of days late I got an e-mail from GC wanting feedback on my buying experience. I gave them an earful, telling them what happened, how wasteful and unnecessary the whole thing was, that it was close to being a sin to needlessly waste such rare and beautiful wood, how incredibly scummy it was to list a damaged instrument in "great" condition, and on and on. Guess what? A couple of days later the listing was changed to "fair" condition, a note was added saying the instrument was damaged in shipping, and there were new pictures showing the damage. Looks like their tech pushed the broken section back into place and glued it. However, the price was not changed. A few days later, it disappeared. I presume it was sold. But this whole incident certainly agrees with your experience Martin. GC has zero respect for rare vintage instruments. It's the worst possible place to buy such an instrument. But if you want a 99 dollar "Stratocaster", you're in the right place.

[Tobin]

I've seen other recent examples (on other instrument forums) of similar damage from instruments shipped by Guitar Center. To be blunt here, they don't give a darn. They pack their instruments for shipping with no care or expertise whatsoever. Even brand-new instruments are shipped loose in boxes, sometimes with no padding at all. Many of them arrived with broken necks or pegheads, and it is apparently a risk they are willing to take. Getting a refund on a broken instrument is little consolation when you had your heart set on that particular vintage instrument.

[William Smith]

Thats a bummer for sure, In all my years I had only one damaged instrument, it was from Gruhn it was a 1935 F-hole Gibson A-50 with the elevated fretboard. It musta taken a hit because both sides of the bridge on the top up to the edge by fretboard had cracks on both sides, and the tailpiece cover fell off and scratched the top, It was too bad because it was the best sounding 35 A-50 I ever owned-It was as good as an F-7 in sound no kidding. But Gruhn offered to fix it but wouldn't come down in price so I said well it's not worth what I paid for it with the damage so they took it back no problem, I never seen em sell it again so don't know where it ended up, but truly a shame. I was bummed but they made it right and I got all my cash back.
Thats why when I buy anything now I want hardware taken off and bridge off, I know its not good to break contact from the bridge/strings cause it takes a while for them to settle back and sound good again but thats how I want em shipped. Don't need the tailpiece cover coming off and gouging another top! or top cracks from the bridge getting whacked and I know most every mail carrier does play football with instrument boxes! I've seen UPS drop em coming off the truck bringing em to my door! I just shake my head at em and say you better hope thats not damaged!

[Steve Ostrander]

Those bubble bags are worthless. If the bubble bursts--and they frequently do--then they lose all their padding qualities and consequently will allow the contents to move about and suffer concussion damage. They should be outlawed, along with packing peanuts.

[Tobin]

I agree, the large bubble bags are terrible for shipping delicate items. But foam peanuts do have their purpose as a filler material that can be formed around oddly-shaped items. And when done correctly, they cradle the object and don't let it shift around too much, while still providing enough "give" to protect against impacts like dropping.

Any good packing job is going to provide a decent cradling effect inside the outer container, while offering an internal suspension system against jolts. Crushed paper can do this well, but it's difficult to get it formed around the internal object and still provide uniformity. Peanuts work great, even though they're messy for all parties involved.

If you really want to mess with customers, pour the contents of a bean-bag chair into the box.

[mrmando]

Getting a refund on a broken instrument is little consolation when you had your heart set on that particular vintage instrument.

Well, I was looking to flip it, not keep it. Thought one of my mandolin orchestra pals might want it — there was a little scuffle between two of them over the last snakehead I had for sale, and snakeheads in general make good orchestra instruments. Vintage oval-hole mandolins are a finite resource, and it's a shame to see one treated so carelessly.

[Seonachan]

This is par for the course for GC. I've gotten a few clunkers from their used inventory and returned them, only to see them relisted with no mention of the problem or reduction in price. The two that come to mind are a Republic tenor guitar with a twisted neck, and a Kentucky mandolin with a broken truss rod. I guess unless you complain to a higher-up somewhere, they'll just stick it back on the shelf at the original price.

[Seter]

There is a lovely old used Giannini classical guitar at the Guitar Center down the street from me, unfortunately it is strung with steel strings. At my Guitar Center at least, the staff rarely have a spare moment and are always underhanded, so it's no surprise that they might haphazardly chuck things in boxes or leave used guitars improperly strung.

[Tobin]

At my Guitar Center at least, the staff rarely have a spare moment and are always underhanded, so it's no surprise that they might haphazardly chuck things in boxes or leave used guitars improperly strung.

You're being way too kind and forgiving. It's not that they are just overworked and busy. It's that they are incompetent and lack a culture of professionalism. Their corporate objective is to sell new mass-produced instruments at rock-bottom prices, and we are fooling ourselves if we expect them to understand how to care for vintage fine instruments. It's like asking the kid at a Walmart sporting goods counter to know how to properly handle a fine collectible antique musket. These types of stores aren't hiring people who are knowledgeable about quality vintage items, or even have any appreciation for them.

[Willie Poole]

It`s not just Guitar Center, I was in a music store in Winter Haven Florida some years ago and they showed me a Fender mandolin that was shipped to them in a cardboard box/case and it didn`t have any padding at all, it wasn`t in a protective case, just laying in the box...It didn`t have any broken parts but I don`t know why it didn`t the way it was shipped...I asked way wasn`t it shipped with a case and they said they don`t come that way, a case will cost you extra...Don`t make a lot of sense to me..

W.P.

[Verne Andru]

To be fair to Guitar Center (you 'merican's need to spend some time in the real-world to know how good you got it) the Vintage section in their Hollywood store is first class and the peeps working there have always been knowledgeable and helpful. I know this probably hasn't translated well to their hundreds of other stores, which are chronically understaffed by school kids, but at least that one store has an inkling of what they're doing.

From a corporate POV shipping anything costs money not only in the shipping but in time and materials. Since they can't do much about outside costs like UPS (I'm sure they've negotiated the best pricing they can) and they already don't pay their staff well, the only other variable is the packing materials. I can see where corporate may dictate how much material to use when packing to keep control of costs so I'd be reluctant to lay blame at the feet of a 17 year old shipping clerk working for minimum wage.

And let's not forget that these peeps are heavily insured. When something like this happens and they can't flip it, they can either make an insurance claim or write it off - either way they don't lose.

Guitar Center is a volume-based business. That means they are less concerned about making large profits on a few things since their focus on making good profits on a bunch of things. Shops like Gruhn's are high margin, low volume.

Used instruments are a side-line for GC and the fact that some of these used pieces are actually valuable vintage instruments isn't a core part of their business. Someone comes in with something to trade, they give them a low-ball trade-in value so they can make their money on whatever is being purchased. Sometimes a not-too-honorable customer slips a broken instrument through this hole knowing it will take until an unsuspecting next customer examines it in detail that the problem surfaces. By then they are long gone.

To show how good you folks have it with GC, in all cases itemized above they took the instruments back and gave a refund.

Guess, aside from a tear for a broken instrument, I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. A lot of other places would leave you hanging with a buyer-beware warning.

[mrmando]

Indeed, part of the reason I rolled the dice on this instrument based on one blurry photo was that I was confident I could get my money back if anything went wrong.

Keep in mind that although GC has a 45-day return policy for new items, their policy on vintage items is more restrictive. I think the fine print on their Web site says three days, whereas the kid who accepted my return said 48 hours. In either case I was OK because I took it back the day after it arrived.

The words "profit" and "Guitar Center" don't really go together ... let's not forget that GC has more than a billion dollars in debt and was bought out 10 years ago by Mitt Romney's Bain Capital LLC. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/gui...den-2017-04-25

As for Fender mandolins being shipped in those little trapezoidal boxes ... I'm sure someone did the math and figured that losing X% of their mandolins to shipping damage was still cheaper than shipping all of them with cases.

I don't know whether the crack in this snakehead was there before it was shipped. Maybe it was and that's the reason it was priced at $1599 (still far too much for anything with an unrepaired neck crack IMHO). I'm not too upset about it, but I thought I'd post this here thread in case anyone else spotted the instrument on GC's website and thought it might be a good deal. It isn't.

[multidon]

Verne, what the "fuss" is about is something that goes way beyond whether we get our money back or not. Vintage instruments are a finite resource. They just aren't making any more, right? Did you read my post? All of it? The instrument I wanted was made out of old growth AAAA flamed koa! You're aware how rare that is, right? And I wasn't looking to flip it. I just wanted it. Badly. To see something that rare, that beautiful, treated like so much trash, it just burns me up. And it was so unnecessary! All they had to do was pack it more carefully! And when I bought it over the phone, I even asked that it be packed with extra care. I pointed out that it had no case and that koa is especially delicate.

As far as what "a lot of other places" do, I'd like to see a business try to make me keep an instrument that they broke because of their negligence!

[Verne Andru]

Hey Don - yes I did read your post (all of it) and share your feelings regarding vintage instruments. Heck, I even cringe when I see a cheapo battered about as most can be turned into something that will bring joy to others.

But you are complaining that the fine wine and fillet Mignon you bought at a McD's drive-through was packed in a brown paper bag and the ketchup leaked all over your fine steak when that is the norm for that venue.

Purchase from a vintage dealer if you expect you and the product you're purchasing to be treated with the respect deserved.

Purchase from the bottom of the barrel and you get what you get with no whining allowed.

I know everyone loves to beat on GC but again you folks don't quite understand how lucky you are to have someone like Mitt Romney subsidizing your GAS and MAS.

Gear is much more expensive and limited in availability everywhere else in the world, and you don't get even a 48 hour money back guarantee in most cases.

[Verne Andru]

As for Fender mandolins being shipped in those little trapezoidal boxes ... I'm sure someone did the math and figured that losing X% of their mandolins to shipping damage was still cheaper than shipping all of them with cases.

Exactly!

Truth be told, cost on a mass-produced Fender anything is peanuts. They can afford to lose a few without even feeling it.

[multidon]

Verne, I totally get it. We're on the same page. But can I please whine, just a little? I would have been happy to purchase that dulcimer from a vintage dealer that knows what they're doing, but that's not where it ended up. It was a unique item that ended up, for better or for worse, at Guitar Center, so it's not like I had a lot of choice. I just think it's sad how vintage instruments end up there. Folks who sell them or trade them in get peanuts. It's a shame they don't have the patience to sell them in a different way, more likely to get them in someone's hands who will be appreciative of them.

[mrmando]

In the interest of fairness I have to report that the snakehead has been pulled from the GC website, so it probably is being repaired. We'll see if it's listed again, and for what price.

It should make a nice player for someone who can't afford what snakeheads usually cost and isn't concerned about resale value. It's just never going to be a collectible.

[Jeff Mando]

Sorry to hear about that one, Martin. An old expression, "that's just the price of doing business" could be amended today to say, "occasional shipping damage is just the price of doing business online." Unfortunate as that may be. I, also, feel like a cheerleader for the well-being of vintage instruments. Like I have said elsewhere on this forum, instruments were better off when they stayed in their "own" hometowns, before the days of internet sales. But, most of us will agree that we like the selection better now than those days when we were limited to what our hometown stores could offer. So, a trade-off for sure. OTOH, as much as I love to fault Guitar Center, I will say I have picked up many genuine bargains there over the years.

[EdHanrahan]

These types of stores aren't hiring people who are knowledgeable about quality vintage items, or even have any appreciation for them.

Gotta say that I've been lucky the past several years. Local GC hired a retired (like me, part-time non-pro) player who knows his stuff, and even owns several high quality guitars that he's happy to discuss. He's developed a following among us, uhmm, more mature folks, and almost anyone over 40 that walks in heads straight for him. And THAT has generated a stream of interesting trade-ins. "Hey Pete, anything you think I should look at today?"