Birdseye - How Does it Affect Sound?

[mandoglobal]

Hey All -

I am making plans to have an F-Style built with birdseye back and sides, and I'm concerned about how this could impact sound quality. Can anyone provide experienced perspective on this? Thank you!

[billhay4]

It doesn't.
Bill

[Marty Jacobson]

It doesn't.
Bill

But... but.... wood species is the single most important factor that influences instrument tone! I read it on the Internet and everything.

Joking aside, Birdseye maple is usually on the denser/harder/stiffer side of things, relative to other samples of maple you might find out there. So it will sound like a dense, hard maple would sound.

It is tricky to carve, razor sharp chisels and gouges are important. It can also be tricky to bend because the grain is oriented every which way.

[fscotte]

Gibson claims to use the hardest densest maple for a good tone. So I dunno, if that were entirely true, wouldn't they make more Birdseye maple backs? I know Dr Cohen has mentioned that you can have maple that is too dense.

[David Houchens]

If I'm not mistaken all Birdseye is sugar maple. What I have is right hard I like it.

[mandoglobal]

It doesn't.
Bill

Bill-

First of all, I like your style. To the point, no extra words, time not wasted. Respect for that.

I was also under the impression that birdseye didn't affect sound quality, but in another post someone said that it produced "too much treble"....which I definitely want to avoid (I do like the deeper, rounder, woodier sound....sorry, I'm not very good at describing this stuff.) Anyway, I thought I'd come here to check in with the other builders and see what y'all think. Hoping to keep the conversation going - your input means everything to me. Thanks guys.

[Jeff Mando]

Check the discussion "Who Owns These Dudes" under General Mandolin Discussions and then click the link on #2 response -- a beautiful Dudenbostel F style with birdseye back and sides -- hey if it is good enough for Lynn Dudenbostel...........

For myself, I'm pretty much of the philosophy that the back and sides are "mostly" a reflecting bowl for what the top and strings are doing..........Ovation probably would agree, I know Yamaha used to finish the INSIDES of their acoustic guitars, probably for that same reason........

Probably opening a hotbed of discussion, but I really don't think so..........

However, birdseye sure is pretty, so I would go for it!

[sblock]

When all is said and done, the back and sides do not contribute all THAT much to the sound of the mandolin. A little? Yes, but as long as they're made from some hard, dense wood of the right thickness, they do their job.

More of the tone comes from the mandolin top, and its many characteristics (wood type, density, stiffness, graduations, tone bars, shape, sound hole, etc.)

I would not be concerned about bird's-eye vs. some other type of hard maple. But bird's-eye might be quite a bit harder to carve nicely.

[fscotte]

I think youre right. I see the back as a way too loosen up the mando, rather than make it bassier or vice versa.

[craigw]

Nice discussion! I'm getting ready to carve my 1st birdseye back for a 2 point. I might be looking at graduating a little on the thin end of the spectrum depending on how it taps out. I visited Lynn Dudenbostel a few years back and he was working on an A model with birdseye that was really pretty. I've had the itch to do a birdseye mando ever since. On the way back from WIntergrass this March I stopped in at Gilmer lumber in Portland and found a nice chunk of birdseye in the scrap bin for cheap and snapped it up. I should be carving in a week or so.

[peter.coombe]

I doubt if the birdseye figure makes much difference to the sound, but as has already been said, the species does make a difference. I have not used birdseye (actually a form of sugar or rock maple) maple much but in my experience it produces a fairly bright sound with great clarity in the treble, and more fundamental than other species of Maple. Get the balance right and it can make a really great sounding mandolin. Lyon and Healy used it quite a bit in their mandolins.

[juneman]

Hi, i am getting ready to carve this one piece birdseye back for an A5 I am building for IBMA. The neck and sides are also some sweet looking birdseye. I have done two others a few years ago. A look at my notes told me i carved the back a bit thinner than usual and both mandos were slightly heavier than my normal builds. This particular A5 will be honey colored ,very thin darker edges, gold hardware and BWB binding. It will also have a one piece englemann top.

Walter

"JUNE" mandolins and guitars

[buckhorn]

My best sounding mandolin was carved from birds-eye and used sitka spruce for the top.. It went to one of the most aggressive pickers I've ever seen and he can really make it sing.....

[BradKlein]

Lyon and Healy used it quite a bit in their mandolins.

I was just thinking the same thing when I read Peter's post above. I've seen enough birdseye maple in L&H mandolins to think that it's not coincidence. Some wood picker in Chicago may have had a thing for it, a century back.

[Spruce]

I just realized that just about all of my favorite mandolins that I play are made from birdseye...
The aforementioned (or pictured) Girouard fanned fret 10-string, my Sullivan F5, and the TK Smith Bigsby copy...
Go figure...

[Fretbear]

One of these states how they supposedly form, the other claims it is unknown...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird%27s_eye_figure

http://www.wood-database.com/birdseye-maple/

[Karl Hoyt]

I like to think that each instrument you build develops its own personality. If you lined up all your instruments, they'd probably sound similar and feel about the same despite different back/sides wood. Why? Because when you have the plates on the bench, you carve them to the pitch you hear in your head. (This is assuming that your techniques are constant).......So sugar maple will be thinner than bigleaf....Engelmann thicker than a stiff red spruce top.....but when tapped, they're going to sound pretty similar....because that's the sound you have in your head.....

When assembled, there will be differences based on the Gestalt principle...(the sum is greater than the parts).... but those sonic differences will be pretty small, despite different species involved, because of your hands.

[David Houchens]

From my experience the back and sides have a very much to do with the sound. Nice hard wood doesn't lock you in to thin sound. It can have excellent bass response

[Steve Ostrander]

Juneman, can't wait to see that A5 take shape. Please post more photos along the way.

[Jeff Hildreth]

I have a limited appreciation of birdseye... depends on the object.

This is what I have known/believed for many years.:

"When working with bird's eye wood, it is advisable to take care in what tools are used, so as to prevent grain tearout. Also the more "eyes" there are in lumber, the weaker the wood tends to be."

The more birds eyes the weaker the wood.. I have seen many older birds eye instruments violently cracked up.

[BradKlein]

Original Poster:

I am making plans to have an F-Style built with birdseye back and sides, and I'm concerned about how this could impact sound quality. Can anyone provide experienced perspective on this? Thank you!

I think that we've achieved consensus on this one. Birdseye maple, and indeed wood species generally make NO difference to the sound of an instrument... except spruce species, which also make no difference unless they do. As for maple, birdseye is very hard which may lead to a thin, or perhaps bass-heavy sound, although it also may make the best mandolins ever. With age, the very hard but weak wood may develop cracks... or in some cases spontaneously explode!

[Oliver A.]

Original Poster:

I think that we've achieved consensus on this one. Birdseye maple, and indeed wood species generally make NO difference to the sound of an instrument... except spruce species, which also make no difference unless they do. As for maple, birdseye is very hard which may lead to a thin, or perhaps bass-heavy sound, although it also may make the best mandolins ever. With age, the very hard but weak wood may develop cracks... or in some cases spontaneously explode!

Agreed.

Motion to adopt:

All in favour, like Brad.

[mandoglobal]

Original Poster:

I think that we've achieved consensus on this one. Birdseye maple, and indeed wood species generally make NO difference to the sound of an instrument... except spruce species, which also make no difference unless they do. As for maple, birdseye is very hard which may lead to a thin, or perhaps bass-heavy sound, although it also may make the best mandolins ever. With age, the very hard but weak wood may develop cracks... or in some cases spontaneously explode!

Brad - Simply brilliant. I believe you should be in the employ of the Mandolin Cafe team to summarize ALL posts on the forum....you know, for those of us eager to get to the point. Nice work!

[BradKlein]

Haha! I'm glad that I gave no offense.
I enjoy the variety of opinions and experiences as much as the next mandolin-geek! And I DO like figured maple of all sorts!

[michaelcj]

I built a "Stratocaster" with a Birdseye neck.... My violin knives handles are made from the off cuts..... They all sound just fine.