nut width of BM's July 9 1923 mandolin?

[carleshicks]

"There are two types of countries, those that use the metric system, and those that have landed on the moon."


Sorry I saw this yesterday and it made me think of this thread.

[Nick Gellie]

Gosh three pages of posts to a simple question on Bill Monroe's mandolin's nut width containing imperial versus metric measurements. I would have thought that a measurement of 1 1/16" would suffice. Maybe that was what the luthiers in the Gibson factory were aiming for.

[Mandoplumb]

How can one system be "more accurate" than another if both systems use numbers to infinity? Answer it cant be. One can be easier to learn, I won't even say easier to use if you learned inches first. I can't get the concept of a meter in this 64 year old head of mine.

[sblock]

"There are two types of countries, those that use the metric system, and those that have landed on the moon."

Well, there's only one country that managed to crash a $125M Mars Climate Orbiter into the red planet in 1999, when a Lockheed engineer used English units (pounds of force) while everyone else at NASA was using the metric system (newtons)! Say, can you guess which country?!

There is a reason for international standards. Ask any scientist.

As for US/Imperial units, what a mess! Machinists have to keep going back and forth between fractions on an inch (8ths, 16ths, 32nds, 64ths, etc) and decimal inches (thousandths, ten-thousandths, etc.), and often have to resort to look-up tables just to find out what's going on. Those silly fractions are an awkward legacy of the 18th century, from a time when measurements were rather crude, and before the modern lathe and mill were invented!

[Timbofood]

CW, what watches have you designed?
Retired watch dealer and mechanical movement nut!

[CWRoyds]

CW, what watches have you designed?
Retired watch dealer and mechanical movement nut!

Hey Tim,

Sent you a message.

Carleton

[Timbofood]

Thanks, interesting "non mandolin" life you have there!

[j. condino]

1975
The Metric Conversion Act of 1975 (Public Law 94-168) passed by Congress. The Metric Act established the U.S. Metric Board to coordinate and plan the increasing use and voluntary conversion to the metric system.

1982
President Ronald Reagan disbanded the U.S. Metric Board and canceled its funding.

1991
President George H. W. Bush signed Executive Order 12770, Metric Usage in Federal Government Programs directing all executive departments and federal agencies implement the use of the metric system.

August 2017
Mandoplumb

"I agree Jeff. This digital crap in photography, recording, and measurement is a whole lot of what is wrong with the world."

You kids get off my lawn.....

[Rush Burkhardt]

Hate to distract from the inches/meters controversy...

In 1969, at Berryville Bluegrass Festival I bought a Randy Wood 37' F-12 from Rual Yarborough. Mr. Monroe, sitting across the parking lot, played my mandolin and I played his. We compared fret board and nut width and they were virtually IDENTICAL. My fretboard and nut measure 1" (25.4mm). At 75, the neck, which was once, perfect for me, is a little narrow. I prefer a little 37' A1 with a conversion by Lou Stiver. The fretboard and nut measure 1 1/8" (28.575); that width and a slight radius make a huge difference!

[dan in va]

Thanks for the very informative post, Rush...a good contrubution to the thread for sure. i'll keep your neck width wisdom in mind.

i'm grateful to Henry and Adrian for sharing their drawings, and i hope someone will be able to share a July 9, 1923 neck profile as well. Not knowing if there is a difference in the neck profiles of the side bound and top bound mandolins from that batch, i think i'll keep looking for a side bound drawing.

There are so many excellent folks who graciously share their knowldege here. This is an amazing website. Many thanks to Scott and all y'all......dan

[Bernie Daniel]

Well, there's only one country that managed to crash a $125M Mars Climate Orbiter into the red planet in 1999, when a Lockheed engineer used English units (pounds of force) while everyone else at NASA was using the metric system (newtons)! Say, can you guess which country?!

There is a reason for international standards. Ask any scientist.

As for US/Imperial units, what a mess! Machinists have to keep going back and forth between fractions on an inch (8ths, 16ths, 32nds, 64ths, etc) and decimal inches (thousandths, ten-thousandths, etc.), and often have to resort to look-up tables just to find out what's going on. Those silly fractions are an awkward legacy of the 18th century, from a time when measurements were rather crude, and before the modern lathe and mill were invented!

Well actually,

A. A country that can crash an orbiter on Mars means that it can at least engineer getting an object to that part of the universe -- so there is that and,

B. Why call it a "US" system? The inches/feet/yards/furlongs/ounces/pounds/tons/degrees F were all developed by the British correct?

Finally, as a lifelong scientist I use both systems and do not generally have any confusion about 98.6 F versus 37 C or 1 mile versus 1.61 km and it is hardly worth all the concern.

Traditionally the "English system" made good practical sense for humans 1 ~ the first knuckle on a the average finger, 1 foot ~ the average foot; one yard ~ an averaged stride.

FYI: The nut width on my 2001 Gibson Sam Bush mandolin is 301,000,000 Angstroms.

[Jim Hilburn]

The first place I ever heard of angstroms was in the movie Andromeda Strain.

[Bernie Daniel]

The first place I ever heard of angstroms was in the movie Andromeda Strain.

Angstrom = one ten millionth of a millimeter they come in handy if your are measuring electromagnetic wavelengths or intra-atomic distances with your plastic ruler from Home Depot!

[Spruce]

I hope they calculated how many angstroms the missing binding was before calculating the width of the nut...

[Jeff Mando]

I wonder why he replaced the fingerboard? Those frets don't look too bad!

[Bernie Daniel]

I hope they calculated how many angstroms the missing binding was before calculating the width of the nut...

That is such a cool photo -- I can clearly seen Bill Monroe's DNA on there!

[dan in va]

Could somebody take a measurement of the end of the board at the nut, with and without binding in that pic, please? Feel free to use the system of your choice....just sayin'.

[Spruce]

Could somebody take a measurement of the end of the board at the nut, with and without binding in that pic, please? Feel free to use the system of your choice....just sayin'.

See:

I just received another gracious e-mail from Walter Carter. I was wondering if the wood at the nut (excluding binding) on the old BM fretboard and their July 9 '23 Loar had the same measurement. To quote, "Both fretboards are 1 1/32" at the nut." I reckon this info ought to suit everyone out there, no?

[dan in va]

i seem to recall that previous post, but i don't know 'xactly which fretboard is pictured just above. Maybe it's the one in the nifty box at Carter's or maybe something else. i wonder how many boards that famous July 9, 1923 mandolin had over its life w/Mr. Monroe. Maybe they were all the same size, or maybe a hair or two different. As for how many angstroms difference there might be from one picker's hair to another, i dunno that either.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

The one pictured just above is the one at Carter's, the AFAIK original Gibson finger board, which was tossed in the saw dust in the early '70s by Randy Wood.

[dan in va]

Don Macrostie was super kind and generous to send some data on a 7/9/23 F5 whose fret board at the nut measured 1.090". There does indeed seem to be some variation. This makes me wonder how much the builders used templates at Gibson. Thanks ever so much, Don!