Mandolute vs mandole

[Jacqke]

I just finished expanding the Wikipedia article Mandole and got confused.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandole Because when I compared it to the mandolute article, it seemed to me that these are the same instrument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandolute

I gathered from looking back at the originals for the mandolute, that the only source for it came from a 2002 online feature column. http://archive.rockpaperscissors.biz...ect_id/199.cfm

The mandole on the other hand seems to date back to 1932, with stories sharing specific names and place.

Sorry for this long setup, with reading to do. Here's my question... Is the use of the word mandolute legitimate for the Algerian-made instruments? Does anyone know a piece that is still missing?

[BradKlein]

It does seem as if a single entry might cover both. In any event, I like that there is a section referencing the unrelated, or distantly related Weymann instrument. And perhaps a section on the Vega 'Lute Mandolin, Mandola, etc... instruments would be helpful as well if you're covering all the brands that have used 'lute' in their name. Here is a great groupiing of those.
https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...andolin-Family

[Jacqke]

Hi Brad,

My computer isn't showing me the pictures unfortunately. Just a symbol that says thumbnails. I can definitely see putting a section in for the Vegas. The only one I know about right now is the cylinder back. Sounds like either research project.

[Graham McDonald]

I would suggest 'mandolute' should barely rate an entry at all. Apart from that one reference you mention I have never come across a North African mandole being called a mandolute. The 1932 date of the mandole conveniently ignores the existence of mandocellos in French mandolin orchestras prior to that, although the diamond shaped soundhole may well date from the 1930s. The mandolute was simply Weymann's marketing name for their flat range of mandolin family instruments they introduced in the mid 19-teens. Vega did not seem to use the term "mandolute" in their advertising in the Cadenza or Crescendo as far as I can find

I am also puzzled by your reference to "Andalusian mandolins". The vitaminedz.org page mentions a demi-mandole which I would think is a mandola of some kind (tenor or octave) rather than a mandolin.

Cheers

[Jacqke]

Hi Graham,

I re-read what I wrote. Darn it, but you are right! The article mentions that in drawing what he wanted for the luthier, El Anka drew a picture of an instrument larger than the demi-mandole (which it said was an enlarged version of the mandolin)... I read it correctly the first time. and then misread it. I read the instruments in the italicized section as being the same (both mandolins) when what it was saying that the shrill mandola was the size that is just bigger than a mandolin.

How about terminology. In an article in English is demi-mandole too confusing? Would smaller mandola be better?

I am really wondering about the composition of orchestras and musicians in Northern Africa in the 1930s. To have an Italian luthier who is also a music teacher seems like good fortune to me. It does make me wonder what kind of instruments were on the ground. It seems like it was really important in these articles that the mandocello-sized instrument be a local invention. The stories all read the same and have the same details, and probably the same source. Nationalism at work?

I will have to go through a process to pare down or eliminate the mandolute article without a vested party objecting. Probably I can merge it into the mandole article, and save the mandolute title for Weymanns and any other that has a good source.

Thank you!

[Jacqke]

Is it still called a mandolin orchestra when the smallest instrument is a tenor mandola?

[Graham McDonald]

I have never seen a photo of a North African mandolin orchestra . You might think that such groups existed in French colonial territories, made up, perhaps, of French colonial administrators or settlers playing the mandolin orchestra repertoire of popular light classical music. The French manufacturers were certainly making mandolins which they claimed could withstand the rigours of colonial climates. The page below is from a 1912 catalog.

There was certainly a mandola-ish sized North african lute the kuitra, like this one and I don't find it to hard to think that local Algerian musicians who knew of or played the kuitra could see the possibilities of the mandocello in their music.

Cheers

[Dave Hanson]

What is a ' mandole ' ? I've never heard this term before.

Dave H

[Jacob]

The mandole (or mandol, mondol) is steel-string fretted instrument resembling an elongated mandolin, popular in North African Kabyle and Chaabi music.

[Jacqke]

What is a ' mandole ' ? I've never heard this term before.

Mandole should simply be the French word for mandola. That's how it translates online and in the context of articles using it. However it is getting shifted between languages.

The Algerians under French colonial rule played mandolas. As French speakers, they called the instrument mandole. Then they built a mandocello sized instrument and called that mandole too. The French adapted; in their Wikipedia they have entries for Mandole ténor/alto (the original) and Mandole algérien.

In English, mandole didn't have its own meaning. When a contributor to Wikipedia discovered the Mandole algérien, instead of using English words and simply calling it an Algerian mandocello or Algerian mandola, instead he called it mandole. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...ldid=480172760