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Thread: Talent vs. Ability

  1. #1
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    Default Talent vs. Ability

    For many years people have always assumed that I have a 'talent' for music because I play a variety of instruments - but I always try to explain that I only have 'ability' and not 'talent' . . . they are two different things.

    For example, I might have the 'ability' to put several pieces of wood together to make a rudimentary toy box for my children, but I do not have a 'talent' for woodworking. I have the 'ability' to draw a recognizable picture of Snoopy, but I do not have a 'talent' for art. Likewise, I have the 'ability' to sit down and make a nice sound with several instruments, but I do not have a 'talent' for music.

    Dave Apollon and Jethro Burns had 'talent'. Dave Grisman and Chris Thile have 'talent'. I have 'ability'.

    Thoughts?

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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    Meh, it's semantics. And I think you're selling yourself short. Having the natural ability to learn multiple instruments and switch back and forth is just the tip of the iceberg. If you were to dedicate your entire life to it like Thile did, you would uncover the rest of the berg.
    Keep that skillet good and greasy all the time!

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    The way I've always thought about this, is that all humans are wired for producing music, whether it's singing or banging on a log. Probably a side effect of speech wiring. However this wiring or "talent" for music exists on something like a bell curve distribution in the general population. In other words, not an on/off switch where you have talent or you don't. Everyone has it, and it's just a question of degree.

    At the extreme ends of the bell curve, and in very small numbers within the population, it's very noticeable. You have the true prodigies at one end, who shine and stand out from a very early age. At the other extreme end of the curve, there are a few poor souls with "amusia" who can't carry a tune or produce a rhythm even with years of music instruction. They try, but they aren't wired for it. I've met people like this.

    The rest of us are in the big middle of the bell curve, with average talent for music and an ability to become very good musicians with enough hard work. The prodigies just get there faster with the same amount of hard work, and they may be able to reach areas of expression where hard work alone isn't enough.

    So I disagree that you only have ability (defined as the result of hard work learning to play) and not talent. You're probably somewhere in the middle of the curve, like most of us. Otherwise you wouldn't be making music at all.

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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    There are many kinds of "talent," or ways in which we think, feel, and process stimuli. So quantifying this, as well as any other behavioral or cognitive aspect, is dependent upon many variables, not least of which is the language we use, which derives from taxonomies of cognition, experience, representation, etc, to describe our "world." There are of course conventions we use (concepts "talent," "ability," so on) but with increasing sophistication of understanding of phenomena, psychology, etc our facility with the subject matter and terminology evolves.

    Basically, we can begin by understanding that we have particular affinities, proclivities, aptitudes, so forth. For example, a person may show little aptitude for playing a musical instrument, yet may possess skill in other areas of music such as appreciation, composition, orchestration, transcription, etc, for "music" is a rather broad discipline composed of many aspects (some are strong rhythmically and others melodically, so forth).

    Our measure of "talent" and "ability" must be broken down into its constituent parts, just as humans have to be understood in many aspects and dimensions, in order to approach an understanding. It's necessary to establish operational terms to be able to describe processes and phenomena at hand.

  7. #5

    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    How far will you go to learn something?
    Most adults have a schedule and regimen where their time permits only so much outside of the regimen.
    Spouse, Children and taxes are not something that should be neglected.
    If somebody has two minutes to rub together, they can try to branch out in their experiences. When you learn something, you're literally re-wiring your brain. It takes time, and it's different for just about everybody. If you know how you learn, you're more than half-way to your goal. Still, even knowing how you learn, but still don't have enough time to dedicate is futile. Somebody will say, "it just takes longer." To which I reply, there's a point of diminishing returns. So theoretically true, but realistically false.
    I have met seemingly untalented folks too. Their personality reveals, they don't have the time to dedicate. On the other hand I've met folks with an affinity. They seem like they could learn anything quicker. I dunno? Evidently their brains are more pliable?

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    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    Futile, imo, to discuss/debate synonymous terminology. Better pick a new term or two which better defines the contrasting (?) qualities.

    Seems to me that this is the perennial Nature vs. Nurture debate?

    tal·ent NOUN
    talents (plural noun)
    1. natural aptitude or skill:
    "he possesses more talent than any other player" · "she displayed a talent for garden design"
    synonyms: flair · aptitude · facility · gift · knack · technique · touch · bent · ability · expertise · capacity · faculty · strength · forte · genius · brilliance · dexterity · skill · artistry
    = = = = = = =

    a·bil·i·ty NOUN
    1. possession of the means or skill to do something:
    "the manager had lost his ability to motivate the players" · "they'll examine your ability to pay"
    synonyms: capacity · capability · potential · potentiality · power · faculty · aptness · facility · wherewithal · means

    2. talent, skill, or proficiency in a particular area:
    "a man of exceptional ability" · "students of all abilities"
    synonyms: talent · skill · expertise · adeptness · aptitude · skillfulness · savoir faire · prowess · mastery · accomplishment · competence · proficiency · dexterity · adroitness · deftness · cleverness · flair · finesse · gift · knack · genius · qualification · resources · know-how

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    Quote Originally Posted by farmerjones View Post
    I have met seemingly untalented folks too. Their personality reveals, they don't have the time to dedicate.
    I've met people who don't have time to dedicate too, but apparently there is an actual musical disorder called amusia, that prevents recognition of pitch (I think it can extend to rhythm issues too). It can result from brain damage or be inherited. Here's the Wiki page on amusia.

    That page says 4% of the population is affected, which is higher than I would have imagined, but maybe it explains the number of people who have extreme problems learning to play instruments, or sing on key. I've met more than one person like this, and it's not for lack of trying with music lessons and practice.

    On the other hand I've met folks with an affinity. They seem like they could learn anything quicker. I dunno? Evidently their brains are more pliable?
    It may be a case of just high IQ and the ability to learn anything quickly, not just music. But it could also be related to the part of the brain that processes music. If there is a congenital mis-wiring in some part of the brain that causes amusia, it stands to reason that there are people at the other end of the spectrum where that part of the brain is working exceptionally well, and probably linked to genetic inheritance.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    I have a friend that can be shown a series of changes on a fretboard and immediately recall them. Most of us have to go over things multiple times to get them right. That has nothing to do with musical talent and everything to do with the way she processes information in her head.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    Another perenial topic here, not that there's anything wrong with that...

    Thread 1
    Thread 2
    Thread 3
    Thread 4

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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    "You must have no dependence on your own genius. If you have great talents, industry will improve them; if you have but moderate abilities, industry will supply their deficiency." Sir Joshua Reynolds
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    I'm tempted, elated and in love with the fruits: guzheng, clarsach, oud, double bass, reeds. They even look beautiful in words. Artifacts of passion. Loving is a talent, and they all react, reciprocate to our efforts, passions. Loving is a talent. Fred Keller said that talent is spending ones time with our love, so too its nature to adhere to all our laws: paradox, fantascism, trancendence, agony. Talent is a monster, love, adversity and euphoria, sweet heaven, enigma.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post
    Meh, it's semantics. And I think you're selling yourself short. Having the natural ability to learn multiple instruments and switch back and forth is just the tip of the iceberg. If you were to dedicate your entire life to it like Thile did, you would uncover the rest of the berg.
    I like this iceberg analogy. My future audience are already boarding the Titanic...
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    I went along to workshops with a very good harmonica player, he said that after ten years of practicing hours a day people started to say he was a naturally talented player.
    - Jeremy

    Wot no catchphrase?

  20. #14

    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    I know so many people who get credited with being talented, but who always talk about the hours of hard work they put in.

    I think some people want to make it about natural talent to avoid acknowledging that they could get there if they ever decided to invest the effort... but have avoided it.
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    Scroll Lock Austin Bob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    To me, talent has the connotation of creativity. Sure, I too once drew a picture of Snoopy that I thought was pretty good, but in reality I suck at drawing, and I certainly have no creativity in me.

    But I've always felt an affinity for music, almost a mathematical connection in my brain. The problem is, it took me way longer than most to get those thoughts into my fingers. But if you keep practicing at something for 40 years, you do get better.

    So yeah, maybe I have a little more on the bell curve of talent when it comes to music, and I have written a handful of compositions/songs. But I consider myself more of a mechanic. I know how to work the guitar and mandolin, and I can play a ton of other people's stuff, but that's from practice more than anything else.

    But I don't think I had any choice. I HAD to play. I know so many people who played in high school band, but then walked away. I just can't imagine going through life without playing music. There would have been a huge void, I'm not sure how I would have filled it.
    A quarter tone flat and a half a beat behind.

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    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    Polish pianist Paderewski played before Queen Victoria,,after hearing him,she said "you are a genius",,alluding to the many hours he practices,he replied back, "thank you,but before that I was a drudge!"...

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    Registered User Drew Egerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    When I started playing guitar 16 years ago, I had no ear, no rhythm, etc. I sat with a chord book an hour a day or more until I learned most of the chords. Then I would play along to the radio with whatever chords I could find online. I didn't know what a capo was so I was usually playing in the wrong key and had NO IDEA.

    Now I can at least pick out the key and chords most of the time and improvise through melodies (expect jazz, but I am learning).
    People say how talented I am, but I don't feel I had much natural ability. Just put lots of time in. 8 year old kids that can pick circles around me, they have the talent!
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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    Those who have less talent need to practice more so that ability grows

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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    One's talent might be patience and tenacity.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    I think some people want to make it about natural talent to avoid acknowledging that they could get there if they ever decided to invest the effort... but have avoided it.
    It's possible that some are using it as an excuse, but it's not so easy to dismiss natural talent completely.

    Otherwise it's kinda hard to explain the musical affinity and performance skills of child prodigies. Those rare, genius-level kids get recognized at a very early age, without years of hard work to explain how good they are.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    Talent does in an effortless flourish, what took ability years of hard work to achieve. That's why talent is a reproach attractor.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    Talent and ability is limited without dedication,drive and motivation...

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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    Otherwise it's kinda hard to explain the musical affinity and performance skills of child prodigies. Those rare, genius-level kids get recognized at a very early age, without years of hard work to explain how good they are.
    It can be explained. There is a period in childhood - around the same time that language skills are usually developed - when amazing feats of learning can happen in a relatively short time with little apparent effort. A lot of information about the world and culture is taken in and used to become the basis of the adult mind in this period.

    This doesn't seem to be an unusual characteristic - children from all around the world and all economic and genetic circumstances can become bilingual if that is common in their household, but it takes much longer to achieve that if you start a second language in your teens or later.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    Of course it matters. It matters a lot.

    But like that it is not resolved.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  33. #25

    Default Re: Talent vs. Ability

    Quote Originally Posted by ombudsman View Post
    It can be explained. There is a period in childhood - around the same time that language skills are usually developed - when amazing feats of learning can happen in a relatively short time with little apparent effort. A lot of information about the world and culture is taken in and used to become the basis of the adult mind in this period.

    This doesn't seem to be an unusual characteristic - children from all around the world and all economic and genetic circumstances can become bilingual if that is common in their household, but it takes much longer to achieve that if you start a second language in your teens or later.
    On the second point, pertaining to what f-path mentioned previously - several years ago I made mention of a particular researcher/ethnographer who theorized that all children have innate musical/song/singing capacity. I can't recall now the work nor the author, but it's here somewhere in the MC annals.

    On the second point, in my experience the "child-like" mind at play is salient in the process of musical skill acquisition. It can manifest in various ways - in my case, consistent with my clinical traits on the autism spectrum, it's an insatiable thirst for novelty, exoticism, sensory stimulation, an irrepressible curiosity and unrelenting quest for aesthetic experience. I see many of these same traits in my son, also on the spectrum. Basically, we can't help ourselves much in this pursuit - it's a neurological drive.

    So, I look at the environment - our total experience and relationship to stimuli - a matter of disposition. It's a view of the world. Some, such as ours, is simply all about aesthetic experience; it's both blessing and curse.

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