Relatively expensive mandolins

[Amanda Gregg]

I have known friends who, with modest incomes and rich, full lives, owned very expensive instruments. Part of their success was surely due to getting "on the property ladder" early, allowing their wise purchases to increase in value over a decade or two or three, and then culling a bit to finance additional purchases. I remember a mentor of mine talking about buying his Loar for about $5000 in the 1970s or 80s and getting roundly criticized for spending that much money on an instrument. "What, is it made of gold?" I think that's a privilege of knowledge and dedication. But that's just one model.

And I'm certainly not there yet. But I am on a lower rung of that model. For me to upgrade to a $7500 or $10000 instrument after selling my Stiver would not be such an insurmountable distance.

Edit: Sorry, I can't help but be an economist for a second. In a sense, I'm using my Stiver as a savings account, since it's neither depreciating nor appreciating very much. Only, it's better than a savings account

[Br1ck]

That's why buying used from another player is the best way to guarantee not spending cash, but transferring wealth. You can always sell it again and transfer the cash back to you.

Spending money only happens when you purchase something that loses value after the sale.

I like your reasoning. Honey, I'm not spending cash, I'm transferring wealth. My new mandolin will be sellable when you need the money. In the meantime I'll be out in my studio and not annoying you.

Seriously, all these perspectives are just what I was looking for when I started this thread. It comes down to what is best for you.

[Bill Cameron]

Interesting to contemplate since I ask myself a similar question eight days a week. I'm a seriously obsessed, working mandolin player who has never paid more than $700 for one (my 505). In my situation now I can afford to at least think of going high-end, but for me thats 2-3k, not 8k. Nonetheless I am compellingly haunted by the works of Oliver Apitius, the Givens A6's that keep showing up in the classifieds, and most of all by the Doug Unger "Harmony in Brown and Black" A5 Artist residing with Elderly Instruments.
But...
-I'm Canadian, so all these numbers need to get about thirty percent
added onto them to fit in our money, plus some considerations for sales tax (13% in my province of residence, which would be assessed upon importation)
-what do I _really_ need to advance my music? Not the Unger, I just think its a uniquely beautiful work of art. No doubt a Givens or one of the Gilchrist A-models would do that. Ten-twelve-grand worth? Hard to picture.
On the plus side... mandolins are pretty easy and inexpensive to care for past purchase date. Unlike second homes, vehicles and boats which also attract my attention from time to time. And as has been mentioned, the right mandolin purchase can hold its value well, making it somewhat family-responsible as these things go.

Well, its fun to think about.

[Tobin]

My first mandolin was a $700 Michael Kelly, and even that was a major expenditure for me. Having a mortgage, my stepdaughter's student loan, and a car note, plus all the usual life expenses, meant that spending big bucks on an instrument was not going to happen. It was only after I paid off all my debt and had a comfortable amount of backup (rainy day) savings that I could splurge on my Ellis, Pava, vintage Gibsons, etc. And even then, most of the money that went towards my Ellis came from selling my Harley.

[stevedenver]

OP
as to relative income......
imho, it should never cause one to lose sleep, nor to jeopardize cash flow, mortgage, tuition, life necessities etc etc.

there are some wonderful pac rim offerings.


as to perceived value, only you know how much you love to play, and, importantly, there is a certain "eureka" moment, when you play a mandolin that sounds and feels like YOU WANT IT TO, and, then, one simply asks, can i afford this?

i have mandolins that i will not "live up to", in the sam bush, thile etc., sense of ability. yet, i play daily, play with folks, play different music, and it is a large part of my life. As such, over the years, its really only a few dollars a day in terms of price versus use. I worked very hard, a long time, to get to the point where i can feel fine about a few indulgences. I was fortunate, in this regard.

many things require a plunge , at times, larger than one would rather undertake. I find, in the long run, in terms of satisfaction, they are good value. I agree with ANdrewF5 in this regard.

i used to build lutes and guitars, so i have a screw loose when it comes to simply loving beautiful instruments.
I find there are many things that are not expensive that provide huge joy and satisfaction, and are great until .....one looks to compare, seeks status in something, etc.

however, one look at the classified here, or at many dealers, and , there are a huge number of used instruments. Barely a handful, imho, are investments. Hopefully, big name big-ish price instruments will at least keep up with inflation.

it would seem they are not easily sold, unless at some loss.

[Rob Meldrum]

Ah, the economics of buying indulgences. I have found, during my nearly 40-year working career, that the single biggest money-waster is one's automobile. The Car Talk guys on the radio used to advise that you should buy a 2-3 year old used car and drive it until the wheels fall off. Great advice! I bought a 1994 Miata and drove it until November of last year. I had it paid off in 3 years and drove it "for free" for the next 19 years. If you figure I could have leased a "nicer" car and had a lease payment of $400 per month, that car saved me around $91,000 over its life. We used some of that savings for down payments on two different rental properties, both of which cash-flowed-positive after about four years. I have a friend who leases a BMW and has had a $500 or more monthly payment for that entire period. He is on the road (air travel) an average of three weeks per month, so the Bimmer gets him to and from the airport. Different strokes.

For a while when we were young my wife and I had three cars. The third car did nothing but cost us money in depreciation, insurance, maintenance, and gas. When we sold it we started to seriously save money. We aren't flashy and we don't care. So watch where the big dollars go and cut those costs. Then buy the instrument of your dreams when you can afford it.

[Bob A]

Here's some figures of interest:

My F4 in 1970 = $1000; Today's value of 1000 = $6280
Loar in 1970 = $5000 Today's value of that $5K = $31400

A $7500 mandolin today would have cost $1195 in 1970

Link to inflation calculator:
https://westegg.com/inflation/

[Bob A]

Lots of ways to save money: Skip Starbucks, as two cups will buy you a pound of roasted beans, and will be better coffee, too; stop eating out - a restaurant meal will buy several days' worth of food if you cook it yourself; buy used cars and mandolins, let someone else cover the depreciation.

While you're at it, max out your 401k contributions; certainly put in enough to capture any employers match, don't leave free money on the table. You will not miss money you never have in hand, and the old you will be very grateful.

[9lbShellhamer]

I live in the midwest, and luckily houses are not nearly as much. I purchased a 4 bedroom 3 full bathroom house for under $200k. I saved some cash for a year and bought my Gibson F5 with the cash. I don't make a lot of money yearly, but I am pretty frugal...I don't eat out, I rent out my basement and do a lot of odd jobs.

When I bought the Gibson a year ago, I had put a lot of extra money in my retirement fund and still had the $6k left over, so I didn't feel guilty, and now with a second child, (a 4 month old son), I'm not sure I'll ever have that much cash laying around again. I'm thankful I squelched my miserly ways and sprung for such an extravagant purchase. I don't regret it at all. I'm very pleased.

[Tobin]

I have found, during my nearly 40-year working career, that the single biggest money-waster is one's automobile.

I came to a different conclusion. The biggest money pit of all is children. At least the automobile gets you to and from work so you can make money. All kids do is cost money!

[allenhopkins]

...I live in the SF Bay Area, and when pondering how much anything costs and how anyone could afford them (Harleys, ski boats, etc.) I just think how much more of my income goes to my mortgage relative to if I lived in a reasonable area. If I moved to even the Sierra foothills, I suppose I could by an Ellis F5 with about six month's savings. But I don't know if I would.

I live in Rochester NY. My house cost $41K 21 years ago, and is fully paid off (could be worth $175K now, which won't buy you a parking space in Boston, SF or NYC).

I'm curious as to how people think of their mandolin purchases in relation to their income. Do you eat Raman noodles for months? Is $7500 chump change to you? Is it a business write off? ( I have a daughter who does that with her viola which is sole income).

I'm an instrument junkie, own about 75 stringed instruments, plus a few free-reed ones, including some fairly pricey (now, not necessarily when I bought them) examples: 1954 F-5, 1906 or so F-2, '20's "ball-bearing" Mastertone banjo, 1970 Martin D-41, 1957 D-18, 1930's National Style 0 resonator guitar, Sobell mandola, late 19th-century Wheatstone baritone concertina, etc. etc. Almost all purchased used, and the most I've ever spent was $4K to have local luthier Bernie Lehmann build me a 10-string, fanned-fret mandolin/dola.

The quirk is that I "play out" frequently, maybe 175-200 gigs per year, mostly small potatoes, but enough to bring in a substantial five figures consistently for over a decade. This "music money" goes into a separate account, and I have no compunction about tapping that account if an instrument catches my fancy. All music-related expenses come out of that account as well: strings, picks, repairs, sound equipment, promotional costs, payments to other musicians. And I do write off these expenses, plus mileage and instrument purchases, as business expenses.

Being now retired, I couldn't imagine spending much more than $3000 for a mandolin, but I can certainly imagine someone else would...

Retired as well, with a decent civil service pension that pays living expenses. Kids grown up and very self-supporting; cars paid for in cash, one ten years old, one seven. Would I buy a $7.5K+ mandolin? Maybe, but probably not. The mandolins I have cover the spectrum of sounds and designs I like, my guitars, banjos, ukes etc. are more than adequate for what I need as a performer, and in my 70's, I'm starting to think more about distributing my collection to heirs and other musicians, than adding to it. I have enough "music money" banked to acquire a Gibson Distressed Master Model, maybe a used Gilchrist, or similar high-end instrument. But other than the pride of owning it, and enjoying its sound and construction as a "step above" what I have now, it wouldn't make a major difference in the music I'm playing. I have pretty much what I need, and enjoy what I have. The last remaining gap in my mandolin collection got filled a few years ago when I finally located an antique Waldo bowl-back mandocello -- I hardly ever play it, but it's somehow emotionally satisfying to own one.

Maybe Instrument Acquisition Syndrome fades with age, or, just maybe, enough is enough. Sorry to ramble on...

[Paul Kotapish]

I've been lucky enough on a couple occasions to put down a modest deposit and get on the waiting list for a great maker early enough so that I could actually manage the then-current asking price. The long waiting time--often several years--gave me time to save up the balance of the payment. On each occasion, the instrument was worth more the day I received it than what I had paid for it, so it wasn't much of a risk.

Still had to come up with a chunk of change, but like others here, I drive 15-year-old cars, have a mortgage that's under control (even here in California), don't buy boats, motorcycles, RVs, don't have expensive vices or other hobbies, make do with a lot of used stuff, and my music income covers my expenditures.

My only advice is that if you are in love with an instrument and you can come up with the scratch, get it! In five years you'll have forgotten the financial pinch and you'll have spent that time enjoying the pleasure of playing a great instrument.

[Charlie Bernstein]

People for whom $7,500 isn't a lot of money.

About thirty years ago, I worked in an antique and antique repro store. We sold $5,000 bed frames. (You can do the math on how much that is in 2017 dollars.) One day I said to my boss that that seemed like a lot for a bed frame.

He said: "You have to remember that these are people who have their priorities covered."

[JeffD]

A fantastic book of several years ago, "The Millionaire Next Door" discussed the characteristics of the really wealthy amongst us. According to the book most (of course not all but most) of the people who own really fine cars and sport really fine watches are wannabees typically going into debt for such items. The majority of real millionaires amongst us are owners of small local businesses who play good defense, i.e. squeeze a nickel till the buffalo makes outrageous noises. They drive older (late model they used to call it) cars, wear serviceable shoes, mow their own lawns, and you would not be able to distinguish them from the normal joe living across the street.

[Jeff Mando]

Enjoying the discussion -- thanks, folks -- there is a lot of wisdom here!

[Bernie Daniel]

.....all kids do is cost money!

Kind of true but in time they often supply you with grand kids....and then you have the added bonus of watching them give your kids the treatment they gave you.....

[Austin Bob]

I sometimes wonder how people can afford their lifestyle choices. The simple truth is that many can't, they are up to their eyeballs in debt.

Others are very good at prioritizing, and have a few nice things that are important to them, but are very good money managers.

Me... I'm kinda in the middle. I know what I should be doing, but don't always follow my own advice.

I do know that none of us can take it with us. As I get older, I also realize that health is the biggest asset we have, and I just squandered some of that with a big bowl of ice cream.

[MontanaMatt]

Good tools add a level of satisfaction for all craftsmen, in all trades and disciplines. Some find joy in redneck solutions, of making due with the simple trappings of life. It really is about ones personal satisfaction. That said, I like nice mandolins, that make me and others go wow. I also feel empowered by tax code incentives to invest in your trade.

[Caleb]

Priorities. A lot of folks think nothing about dropping $3k for a new MacBook or $5k for a flatscreen and media room setup - all purchases that will be obsolete in a few years, where a good instrument will outlive its owner. If someone saves his/her money and gets a $7500+ mandolin and will ENJOY it, I say it's money well-spent. Most people in the long run probably spend a lot more on stuff they don't really want and don't keep. Priorities...

[Ivan Kelsall]

The truth of the matter is,is that there are more 'very' wealthy folk out there than ever. There are more multi millionaires in most developed countries than ever before, & many more billionaires - i just ain't one of em !.

Some folk do end up up to their chins in debt,but,if they can still pay it off,that's ok. It's when you can't for one reason or another that the **** hits the fan !. Personally,i've alway bought the best that i could afford at any one time. If i wanted to buy something 'better',i'd sell it & buy the 'better' item. I've sometimes been lucky enough to come across a real bargain & save cash that way, as well as having something which i couldn't have afforded otherwise. 30 'something' years ago,i visited a good friend of mine in the Hi-Fi store that he worked for while i was out shopping. He asked me if i was interested in buying a high class Hi-Fi pre. & power amplifier. SONY were selling off all their high end 'Esprit' range of amps.,speakers etc. & a pre.amp & 120 watt class "A" power amp was going for sale for £800 UK. As the full price was close to £4,000 i didn't hesitate. I had to get a bank loan to buy it
,but i could afford it & i paid it off in 6 months. I was able to afford my 'used' Ellis "A" style only because it was offered to me at a price well below what it had been on sale for. It was a chance to own an Ellis mandolin so i went for it. I think that most of us are opportunistic buyers. If we see something that we like at 'the right' price,we buy it,it makes sense to do so,
Ivan

[almeriastrings]

There's also the simple fact that you only live once.. so enjoy it while you can, and if you get real pleasure and satisfaction from playing an instrument you love, then go for it. Some people fritter money away on drink, drugs, smoking, gambling all kinds of stuff...good mandolins hold a decent value and won't kill you, either....

[stevedenver]

There's also the simple fact that you only live once.. so enjoy it while you can, and if you get real pleasure and satisfaction from playing an instrument you love, then go for it. Some people fritter money away on drink, drugs, smoking, gambling all kinds of stuff...good mandolins hold a decent value and won't kill you, either....

+1
Life is short
There may come a time when your bod gives out,or, your mind.

Enjoy life, play music, be with others, some that play, some that listen to you play, and.......a glass of decent wine.

[Jeff Mando]

Here's some figures of interest:

My F4 in 1970 = $1000; Today's value of 1000 = $6280
Loar in 1970 = $5000 Today's value of that $5K = $31400

A $7500 mandolin today would have cost $1195 in 1970

Link to inflation calculator:
https://westegg.com/inflation/

Hey Bob A, I have a similar story from when I was in my 20's ('several' years ago!)......anyway I like old Cadillacs and car collecting and being poor don't really go together, but I had a pretty shrewd eye, even back then and I searched the poor neighborhoods and unlikely places to find stuff. I wanted a 1959 Eldorado convertible, but they were scarce even back then, I found one two streets over, believe it or not for $1500.....unfortunately, for me that was an impossible sum on what I was making back then. What I did find a 1960 Couple de Ville for $500 and bought it. I thought I was a king driving it around. But, like the F4/Loar comparison, if I had just spent the extra money on the Eldorado, well......the last one I saw on eBay was $175K, to give you an idea. Probably doesn't matter anyway, just a story at this point, as you might have guessed life got in the way and I don't have the 1960, either, at this point.....
of course, when you are young, life is supposed to be fun and not to be taken too seriously, right? But, I don't think any amount of "shrewdness" could locate a cheap Loar these days, or an Eldorado convertible, for that matter!

[farmerjones]

Just bop over to the Rolex forum, if you want to read thread after thread about rationalizing, justifying, debating or whatever. I've learned a lot about value and appreciation. Not monetary appreciation but appreciation for the aesthetic.
No better place than the Caf'e here to educate about why a +7k mandolin is better. Everybody already knows, it ain't the tool it's the operator.

[sgarrity]

I've never seen a Brinks truck behind a hearse! Buy the best mandolin you can afford and play the heck out of it.