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Thread: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

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    Default Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Hi! As I play and learn more about my ears preference, I find myself wanting a Adirondack red spruce top mandolin. I have played enough at this point to know how red spruce is affecting tone vs sitka, and it is my strong personal preference that I get something of good quality with a red spruce top.

    That being said, I currently have a pretty solid 2007 Gibson F9. Being that I could sell it for around 2.5k, I'm wondering if you guys recommend any mando's in that price range that have an adi/red spruce top. I know its a little more expensive than sitka, but depending on the instrument, it will be worth it for me.

    Thank you!

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Quote Originally Posted by NJmando View Post
    ...I have played enough at this point to know how red spruce is affecting tone vs sitka, and it is my strong personal preference that I get something of good quality with a red spruce top...
    Having built, heard, and sort-of played mandolins for 30 years or so, I don't know how red spruce is affecting the tone vs sitka. In fact, the two are very similar to my ear. BTW, I have used both of those woods (among others) for the whole 30 or so years, although my red spruce is from West Virginia, not the Adirondacks.

    Having said that, you should be able to get a top quality A-style mandolin with a red spruce top from any of numerous builders in the $2000 to $3000 range.

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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Red (Adirondack) spruce is now the standard top wood for all Weber models except the Yellowstone, Bitterroot, and Gallatin. It is unavailable on the Gallatin, and and a 275 dollar option on the Yellowstone and Bitterroot.
    Don

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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Northfield F5S mandos come with an Adirondack top and can be had new for $3K with the occasional used in the Cafe classifieds for $2200-2500 like the following (NFI).

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/113012#113012

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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    If you're open to an A-style, then my first thought is a Pava. I had an early model, and there is one like it and two later Players both currently offered used in the classifieds.

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/112475#112475

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/112810#112810

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/113020#113020

    If you have to have a scroll, then the Northfield F5S seems to get the most favorable reviews in that price range. There is a used one with some wear available in the classifieds for less than your budget and Elderly has a shopworn one for a bit more but might be open to negotiation.

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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    I currently offer an F5 with Red spruce top in that price range. Completely handmade with satin finish. My oil varnish finish is a little extra though.
    Jason
    sloanmandolins.com

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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Quote Originally Posted by NJmando View Post
    Hi! As I play and learn more about my ears preference, I find myself wanting a Adirondack red spruce top mandolin. I have played enough at this point to know how red spruce is affecting tone vs sitka, and it is my strong personal preference that I get something of good quality with a red spruce top.

    That being said, I currently have a pretty solid 2007 Gibson F9. Being that I could sell it for around 2.5k, I'm wondering if you guys recommend any mando's in that price range that have an adi/red spruce top. I know its a little more expensive than sitka, but depending on the instrument, it will be worth it for me.

    Thank you!
    Good luck with your search --whatever makes you happy. Of course you already have a great mandolin.

    One thing to consider on the other side is that in a blind test of 20 comparably built mandolins, say 10 with red spruce and 10 with Sitka it is highly unlikely that anyone could pick out the mandolins with red spruce top boards. Said another way until proven in some kind of blind (objective) test like that I'd say the idea the red spruce is "better" for mandolin tops is another of those never to be proven "mandolin facts". I'll go further and say it probably isn't even true (my opinion). That the carving of the mandolin top board is far more important than the species of spruce it is made of seems certain.

    There is likely as much variation between two pieces of red spruce as between a piece of red versus Sitka versus Engelmann.

    The density and other physical properties of the three species overlap as well.
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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    i think red spruce is denser in most pieces, hence a woodier tone, but i think it takes longer to break in, especially with a gibson style thicker top. but well worth it. i have a japanese made goya with sitka spruce top--i think, it's oretty good as well and a local hand made with sitka spruce top, which is loud and punchy. i notice more difference on a guitr, the bigger sound board emphasises the woody and deep punchy tone which makes a lot of vintage guitars special. just my opinion which isn't based on enough instruments to be very scientific.

    of course the best quality sitka c an be similar. it's the density that makes red spruce special, so sitka from a wind facing hill grows as dense, while a lot of average grade can be a lot softer.

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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    I really would not like to generalize too much when it comes to top woods.....I've heard good and bad examples of all kinds. It is, in my opinion, much more down to the builder. I have two particular mandolins that I'd never part with: an Ellis and a Harvey era F-5 Fern. The Ellis is red spruce, the Gibson is sitka... they are both fantastic sounding mandolins....
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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Quote Originally Posted by ollaimh View Post
    i think red spruce is denser in most pieces, hence a woodier tone, but i think it takes longer to break in, especially with a gibson style thicker top. but well worth it. i have a japanese made goya with sitka spruce top--i think, it's oretty good as well and a local hand made with sitka spruce top, which is loud and punchy. i notice more difference on a guitr, the bigger sound board emphasises the woody and deep punchy tone which makes a lot of vintage guitars special. just my opinion which isn't based on enough instruments to be very scientific.

    of course the best quality sitka c an be similar. it's the density that makes red spruce special, so sitka from a wind facing hill grows as dense, while a lot of average grade can be a lot softer.
    I've often heard that view expressed. However looking at The Wood Database as one site that deals with all three species of spruce I find that the superior physical properties of red spruce (at least compared to Sitka) may not be something that is generally true. Or at least not an impressive or significant difference?
    See below:

    Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis)
    Distribution: Northwestern North America
    Tree Size: 130-160 ft (40-50 m) tall, 4-6 ft (1.2-1.8 m) trunk diameter
    Average Dried Weight: 27 lbs/ft3 (425 kg/m3)
    Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .36, .42

    Janka Hardness: 510 lbf (2,270 N)
    Modulus of Rupture: 10,150 lbf/in2 (70.0 MPa)
    Elastic Modulus: 1,600,000 lbf/in2 (11.03 GPa)
    Crushing Strength: 5,550 lbf/in2 (38.2 MPa)

    Red Spruce, Adirondack Spruce (Picea rubens)
    Distribution: Eastern North America
    Tree Size: 80-110 ft (24-34 m) tall, 2-4.5 ft (.6-1.4 m) trunk diameter
    Average Dried Weight: 27 lbs/ft3 (435 kg/m3)
    Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .37, .43

    Janka Hardness: 490 lbf (2,180 N)
    Modulus of Rupture: 9,580 lbf/in2 (66.0 MPa)
    Elastic Modulus: 1,560,000 lbf/in2 (10.76 GPa)
    Crushing Strength: 4,870 lbf/in2 (33.6 MPa)

    Engelmann Spruce (Picea engelmannii)
    Distribution: Western North America
    Tree Size: 130 ft (40 m) tall, 3 ft (1 m) trunk diameter
    Average Dried Weight: 24 lbs/ft3 (385 kg/m3)
    Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .33, .39

    Janka Hardness: 390 lbf (1,740 N
    Modulus of Rupture: 9,010 lbf/in2 (62.2 MPa)
    Elastic Modulus: 1,369,000 lbf/in2 (9.44 GPa)
    Crushing Strength: 4,560 lbf/in2 (31.5 MPa

    I am lead to hypothesize that the "magic of red spruce" as the wood of choice for top boards is just another unproven idea -- a leap of faith that comes from the fact that instrument building in the USA started on the East Coast were the easiest spruce to get was red spruce?
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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Thanks bernie for a most informative blog,,i've always thought that the age
    of the wood,,and the carving had more to do with the end sought after result,,
    as the choice of wood used.
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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    I am lead to hypothesize that the "magic of red spruce" as the wood of choice for top boards is just another unproven idea -- a leap of faith that comes from the fact that instrument building in the USA started on the East Coast were the easiest spruce to get was red spruce?
    I think it's the substitution of causation for correlation. A lot of our favorite instruments, and in particular the vintage ones, are built with Adirondack tops, red maple backs, hot hide glue construction, and varnish finishes. Then a lot of us make the leap, and I'm as guilty of this as anyone, to think that these instruments sound better because they are built with those materials. Now I seriously doubt that I could hear the difference between an instrument built with hide glue and another made with Titebond, or one with varnish versus one with lacquer, or even one with red spruce over another with a good piece of Sitka. But if I entered the marketplace, or commissioned a build, looking for an F5, I would gravitate to those materials that I associate with my favorite mandolins. And I think that builders, recognizing that association, tend to produce mandolins with those materials in order to be successful in the marketplace. The real difference, however, is the builders handling those materials, whether it was the trained workers in the Gibson factory a century ago or the talented luthiers in their independent shops today.
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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    I completely understand that there are variations within wood species, builders, other factors etc etc. But generally speaking, each species of spruce have a unique tone addition to the instrument. Like maple vs mahogany vs rosewood back and sides on an instrument are all unique, generally speaking, and then vary further within the species. But maybe you could find some that sound similar. There will always be potential crossover in some areas, just like not every african or european or asian human is born with identical physical characteristics. There are common themes, and then there is variation within those themes.

    For example, I notice that almost always, red spruce has less overtone presence and is much more focused, tight and melodic than sitka spruce. That's an important characteristic for a mandolin. I'm sure you could find a more overtone-centered piece of red spruce, but it would be in the small minority of cases...an exception to the rule.

    So yeah...I know I want a red spruce top. lol. Of course I care very much about build quality etc as well.

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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Sitka is more readily available. It should be easier to get high quailty Sitka, in guitar sizes particularly. I think the quality of the individual piece would be far more important than if it's adirondack or sitka, which are very much alike. I believe you're reading way too much into the supposed differences between the species.

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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Well you should get the mandolin that you want certainly. My main point is limiting your search to red spruce tops only automatically precludes looking at a lot of great mandolins with some other top wood.
    It is understandable that Charlie Derrington when trying to recreate the Loar signed F-5s would choose red spruce.
    But if your goal is a better mandolin, and you already have a very good one, I'm suggesting making a red spruce top might be the best criterium?
    That said it probably makes more sense than making a scroll your main criteria! LOL

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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    But in this great debate we are leaving out the more important issue, the OP is looking for an excuse to justify buying another mandolin.
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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    I can get you a red spruce top for $800. But as for the rest of the mandolin, you're on your own.
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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Quote Originally Posted by multidon View Post
    Red (Adirondack) spruce is now the standard top wood for all Weber models except the Yellowstone, Bitterroot, and Gallatin. It is unavailable on the Gallatin, and and a 275 dollar option on the Yellowstone and Bitterroot.
    ....and every bit of that 275 bucks goes to the tonewood cutter......not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ollaimh View Post

    of course the best quality sitka c an be similar. it's the density that makes red spruce special, so sitka from a wind facing hill grows as dense, while a lot of average grade can be a lot softer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post

    I am lead to hypothesize that the "magic of red spruce" as the wood of choice for top boards is just another unproven idea -- a leap of faith that comes from the fact that instrument building in the USA started on the East Coast were the easiest spruce to get was red spruce?
    +1...(...and the Loar specs helped...)

    Quote Originally Posted by bruce.b View Post
    Sitka is more readily available.
    Red is pretty easy to come by in mando sizes, no?
    (Guitars are another story)...
    I don't have any, but that only because I gave up my mill on the right coast many years ago...
    EDIT: Quick search....here's a bunch...

    For the record, how a small manufacturer can bump the price to 275.00 a set for mando wood on one hand, and complain about tonewood prices on the other, has always boggled the mind...
    It wasn't the tonewood folks who sent the price of Brazilian Rosewood skyrocketing, for instance...
    It was the builders themselves...

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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Quote Originally Posted by NJmando View Post
    ....For example, I notice that almost always, red spruce has less overtone presence and is much more focused, tight and melodic than sitka spruce. That's an important characteristic for a mandolin. I'm sure you could find a more overtone-centered piece of red spruce, but it would be in the small minority of cases...an exception to the rule.

    So yeah...I know I want a red spruce top. lol. Of course I care very much about build quality etc as well.
    There is a LOT more difference in the characteristics of mahogany, rosewood and maple than between the three spruce species.

    I'd reread the first post, slowly and out loud, regarding the tonal qualities. You can't beat actual experience.

    But the heart wants what the heart wants, and hears what it wants to hear. Knock yourself out, you'll be happiest.
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  30. #20

    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Check out Girouard mandolins. Max and Lauri can get you in an A5 with red spruce in your budget. Great mandolins!

    You can't go wrong with a Pava A5 either. I'm a big fan of anything coming out of Tom Ellis's shop.
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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Spruce, I wish you would have quoted my very next sentence where I said, "in guitar sizes particularly." I don't have a problem with it, I just feel it would have been more accurate to do so.

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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    To the OP: What do you find lacking in your Gibson?

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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric F. View Post
    To the OP: What do you find lacking in your Gibson?
    I think it lacks a little in volume, and the E string seems a little restrained. Also, as I mentioned earlier, its a little too swimming in overtones for my taste. I want single notes to be very loud, sweet and bell like with little effort. This mando makes that beautiful tone, but I have to do too much work to get the note, and then there's no room to get louder or push harder. I know red spruce won't automatically resolve all of those issues, so please, no lectures, I have a good ear, I'm just looking for suggested brands/models in my price range with red spruce.

    Thanks for the suggestions thus far - I've tried some Pava's, not a fan. I have looked at Collings MF (seems like the obvious choice for me) but I'd really like to avoid paying extra after I sell the F9. J Sloan commented above that he sells an F model with red spruce top in that range, and after looking up his playing samples I have to say, his mandos sound great! Anyone have one or have played one? I sent him a message, maybe if the stars align I will get to try one.

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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Quote Originally Posted by NJmando View Post
    ...no lectures....
    Not lecturing here....(well, maybe a little...)

    ...but...if you can't tell the difference between the various spruces in raw billet form (and I can't, with the exception of Sitka), then how the heck can you tell the difference when they make their way into a mandolin??
    I mean, you can smell, chew, and taste the wood in it's raw billet form (and I do), and still get the species wrong (and I do)...
    But you're going to hear the difference?

    And if you think you can hear the difference, how do you really know it's Picea rubens?
    For instance, there's a lot of white spruce is out there masquerading as the coveted red spruce in some very high-end mandolins...heck, I've had a hard time telling the logs apart in a millyard in Maine myself...

    ...and I know for a fact that there's a ton of Ukrainian spruce--with the distinctive wide uneven graining and reddish discolorations--in a lot of well-know high-end guitars with a red spruce tag on them...and the associated price-bump.
    Those tops cost 10 bucks apiece!

    I know you'll find your red spruce mandolin and hope you do...
    If the truth be known, that's why I drove across the country about 10 times back in the 90's--to get that wood into mandolins...
    But the more you delve into this stuff, the more you realize what a huge can 'o worms the issue of spruce species and how it relates to mandolin tone really is...
    You should see the Engelmann I just got--I'd bet 100 bucks it was red. Hard, heavy, uneven graining--all hallmarks of red spruce...
    Go figure...

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    Default Re: Adirondack Red Spruce top in the $2-3k range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spruce View Post
    It wasn't the tonewood folks who sent the price of Brazilian Rosewood skyrocketing, for instance...
    It was the builders themselves...
    I'd say it was consumer demand. You gotta' give folks what they want if you enjoy eating.
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