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Thread: Trying something new!

  1. #1
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Trying something new!

    I have been experimenting with end gain sides backed with carbon fibre.
    This is no 2, better than no 1' hopefully no 3 will better still?
    Click image for larger version. 

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  3. #2

    Default Re: Trying something new!

    That's awesome! I love it when people try something different than the standards. Let us know how it turns out.

    Thanks,

    Magnus

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  5. #3
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    Thank you Magnus, I don't get much support from this forum but I thought the design might interest a few members!
    I have made a few tenor banjo rims from end grain blocks, I always preferred the look to laminated rims, so I thought I would have a go at an end grain tenor guitar.
    I have also followed the banjo theme buy making the sides quite thick, at around 3mm they are almost twice as thick as normal heat bent sides.
    I have also discovered that buy using slow setting, high viscosity epoxy resin, the epoxy actually penetrates right through the end grain making the blocks extremely solid & permanently set in shape.

  6. #4
    Registered User bruce.b's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    That is very interesting. I like the look. I also like the idea of making the sides thicker and stiffer.

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    Mangler of Tunes OneChordTrick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    Looks great! Like Magnus I appreciate it when someone is not afraid to go against the grain.

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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    Great idea Fox. Did you have to do the heat curing routine for the carbon fibre to become rigid enough to support the end grain laminates? I recall some of the problems which Rigel went through and have personally had problems with aerodynamically shaped masts for ice boats. They both required special 'baking' before they were structurally sound and not like limp spaghetti. A home made sixteen foot long oven is a sight to behold.
    Mandola fever is permanent.

  11. #7
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    No, just ambient temperature (around 22c) It has not been as easy as I hoped it would be but, I have a system now.

    Once I have cut the pieces I lay them out on some sticky tape, then paint the end grain surface with warmed epoxy & quickly set the tape with wood attached into a female mould. It is then a matter of pressing the male mould down with four large clams & letting it set for 24 hours.
    I then remove the male mould & the tape, then apply two layers of carbon weave & epoxy. Finally I use a slightly different male mould (.75mm smaller) & clamp that down with as much force as I can.
    At that stage I have one side complete & very ridged, so not a quick process compared to using a heating iron and bending wood.
    A much simpler way would be to use three .6mm veneers & back that with carbon but then it would just look like any other guitar you can buy.

  12. #8
    Registered User Tim N's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    I like the look of it. It gives a sort of tortoiseshell look that is really different. Would it be correct to say that whilst celebrating the woodiness of the materials, it becomes more a question of aesthetics rather than of the tonal qualities of the wood? Or is that relatively irrelavent with the sides anyway? What kind of wood are you using?
    "What's that funny guitar thing..?"

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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    Looks really cool! What are you going to use for top and back wood?
    Chuck

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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    That's going to be a very classy guitar.
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

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  17. #11
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    The wood is Camilla, I have been lucky with wood as I am friends with a landscape gardener who maintains several stately homes.
    As a keen didgeridoo builder I have quite a selection of branches & smaller trunks, some are quite exotic.
    The 200 year old Camilla in question has possibly the most spectacular colours, lots of red, green blue & yellow but I also have lots of other hard woods to choose from.
    The top & back will most likely be Monterey Cypress but I only have enough left for one more guitar so I want to make sure I make a body worthy of the Cypress!
    Anyway I have made another attempt at an end grain side that is ready to come out of the mould this morning, with a bit of luck it will have tighter joints & look even better....

  18. #12
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    I though I would share some of todays woes.... after another 9 hours in the shed & I am still not satisfied with the results I am achieving!
    This is meant to be fun for me but my stress levels are overflowing.
    I want to have a perfect finish out of the mould, the mould surfaces are lined with formica ( I think you call it something else in the States) The formica is highly polished, the idea is that the end grain will have a coating of epoxy that has a perfectly flat finish but, I am getting low patches and a dull finish in other places. I think this is due to irregularities in the formica & a non perfect fit between the two mould halves.
    I also think the end grain sucks up the epoxy so much, that I am not using enough to totally saturate the wood
    So today I relined the mould with 1mm polished stainless steel & made another side!Unfortunately I now have to wait 12 hours to see if this will give a better result.

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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    Pretty neat, you are sly as a fox.

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  21. #14
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    This really is not easy, I have concluded a few facts though.
    The 3mm thick end grain pieces I have been using are very porous, to such an extent that they suck up huge quantities of epoxy.
    This means several things to me... one is the wood becomes totally saturated & in effect becomes more like moulded plastic than bent wood. I don't think this is a bad thing as the result will be extremely durable & wont be effected by moisture ( or hardly anything else) but the issue is the weight! I would guesse the sides would weigh at least 3 x more that a standard wooden side.
    I would think that the type of wood used will make a big difference as to how much epoxy it would absorb, I could just use a tight grain wood.
    On a positive note, the last one out is looking amazing... just very heavy!

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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    Hmm, if the wood soaks up that much epoxy do you still need the CF layers? Can you go any thinner on the wood, although 3mm seems pretty thin already.

    Still at least you'll be able to use it club an unruly audience!
    - Jeremy

    Wot no catchphrase?

  23. #16
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    How about using shellac as a sealant followed by a thin layer of epoxy to bond it?
    You could even stay with the theme and go for a french polish finish on the outside.
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

  24. #17
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    Isn't there some trick with scrambled egg whites?

    (I'm no builder, just curious. . . )

    f-d
    ˇpapá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

    '20 A3, '30 L-1, '97 914, 2012 Cohen A5, 2012 Muth A5, '14 OM28A

  25. #18
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    Yeah thanks guys there are a few ways to go...
    I do want thick dense sides, I like the speaker box concept, the carbon weave really looks cool on the inside so I could use a thinner wood veneer & add an extra layer of carbon.
    I am probably going to carry on building the prototype as I have other interesting ideas to test out.

  26. #19
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    By George l think I have cracked it!
    After many exempts and useing the very last of my camellia wood, I have managed to produce a good result.
    I changed from slow setting epoxy to fast setting and added a thickening agent, I used 2.5mm pieces of end gain and two layers of carbon.
    So I now have one side finished and one setting in the mould & a lot of not quite perfect sides LOL.

  27. #20

    Default Re: Trying something new!

    Eh, weight is overrated anyway. This thing is probably my favorite of the ones I've built. Of course, it's electric...

    Click image for larger version. 

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  29. #21
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    This mornings work straight out of the mould....

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  31. #22
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    That does look the mutt's. Reminds me a little of a fossil bed.
    - Jeremy

    Wot no catchphrase?

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  33. #23
    Registered User Tim N's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    Looks amazing!
    "What's that funny guitar thing..?"

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  35. #24
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    Not much progress this week, but I have fitted some square carbon tube (round inside) as body bracing.
    I have set the the sides slightly askew... just be different....Click image for larger version. 

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  37. #25
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trying something new!

    A bit more progress, I have just enough Monterey cypress to make a one piece top and a one piece arch back.
    I had to cut the wood by hand then I planed the top down to 2mm, I have used a nice piece of mahogany for the sound hole area.
    Also started the neck....

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