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Thread: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way...

  1. #26

    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    I took up progressive strength training at age 47. Every time in the gym I would add a little bit more weight. Eventually I did reach a limit, after all I am only human, but I lift more weight than most people would expect for a lady my age and size. It was a slow, painful process but it taught me a lot. Training is a process where you start at the beginning and add a small stress that forces an adaptation. Over time you become better at whatever it is. It works for everything, from lifting to running to learning a language to re-learning how to play an instrument after years of bad habits. It's also not really as difficult to train as it might seem at the beginning. The stress/adaptation cycle works for everyone so long as the stress applied is appropriate (not too much or too little).

    Because I tried this out on myself I've come to enjoy the process of trying to fix old habits. It's pretty fun to spend a few hours with a metronome or whatever and see if I can make an improvement. It seems to work every time. Sometimes you need a coach if you get stuck.

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  3. #27
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post
    OK, but there's still the issue that these are different instruments, and are held differently.
    ........
    I don't want to belabor the point, but I just don't see how a similar approach to these completely different motions can be beneficial. We all know that the mandolin and violin share a lot of similarities, but the one thing that makes them completely different instruments (and worth having completely separate mindsets) is picking versus bowing.
    I cannot speak for anyone else.

    When I make comparisons between holding/using a pick and a bow, I'm not really talking about direct comparison on physical activity.

    As you point out, the motions are quite different between the two methods of producing sound.

    However, I see a musical connection in that the pick and the bow are what articulates the music....they are where the artistry and phrasing begin.

    So I am referring to the musical results of the pick and bow, not so much the actual physical actions involved to get the musical outcome.

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  5. #28

    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Fwiw, David's remarks resonate with me. After so much playing of a variety of stringed instruments, and with such various materials and technical approaches, the distinguishing physical features of each, while obvious, are one aspect; there's a conceptual piece and "feel sharing" that seems prevalent (when *playing* but not so much in thinking physiologically) as well. Even such disparate methods as plectrum and bow, there's a sensibility and feel common to both. As David describes, both plectrum and bow function essentially similar in activating vibration on the strings, yet while physically and technically quite different and yielding different effects. The ergonomics of wrist, hand, fingers orientation and contact with strings with an implement - is similar in feel, concept. It could be a pick or a potato or a stick - we hold it and strike or rub the strings in some fashion.

    By contrast, I don't feel much if any commonality with fingerstyle - the approach is much different than holding and using an implement.

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  7. #29
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Really? You may be right, Hank, but I still think that's reading too much into that paragraph. He specifically referred to "holding the pick" in every sentence of his answer except the one that mentions "technique" - so it's conjecture to think "technique" there is more about the strokes than the grip.

    At the bottom of it, he gripped a pick in a similar way that his fingers felt on a bow, and he learned to play that way, got the results he wanted, and probably doesn't think much about it until someone brings it up. This is just my 'uninformed opinion', but I think that if anyone believes trying to learn to hold a pick like he does will help their technique, they may be disappointed in that.
    That's the way I read it, too. To do that, you'd have to have the first frame of reference as being the bow. It was in my case, and I described my pick hold (at the time) in similar terms, likening it to a bow hold, on this very forum. Just as the thumb and middle finger were the fulcrum point that controlled my bow, with the index finger in a supporting role, I could do nothing different at first with a pick. To attempt to reverse the "roles" between the index and the middle finger meant the difference between being able to control the pick and being totally inept at it. I read of others calling it a "pencil grip" as well. But just as it's only natural to relate something new (pick) to something familiar (bow), it would be unnatural for someone who'd never played with a bow try to think of it in those terms out of the blue.

    My technique changed as I got more familiar with picks. I never really worked at it, but it has. I use the index finger more now, and the middle finger a bit, and it seems their initial roles have naturally reversed over time.

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  9. #30

    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    gawd, two pages (so far - and there will be plenty more if this thread is allowed to continue) about people's personal opinions about something that should be as naturally unique to each of us as walking and talking at the same time. geez louise. what are y'all trying to prove? absolutely nothing. whether picking yer nose or picking yer mando, you'll do what comes and works most natural to ... YOU. not me. or the rest of y'all. give it a rest.
    Mandolins are truly *magic*!

  10. #31
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Worried they might use up the internet if you don't tell them what you're allowing them to discuss?
    Imagine the horror if people could discuss what they liked without getting your permission.
    Feel free to ignore any threads you don't like and don't feel compelled to contribute.
    Eoin



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  12. #32
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Some people have a traumatic past to work out of, where they were constantly admonished how to do things. What remains is a fear of losing the hard-earned freedom from this, like someone passing a law against eating meat or incorrect pick-grip. And laws against everything exist somewhere...

    What really helps is developing a bloodyminded criminal attitude of "show me a law and I'll break it".
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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  14. #33

    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    Worried they might use up the internet if you don't tell them what you're allowing them to discuss?
    Imagine the horror if people could discuss what they liked without getting your permission.
    Feel free to ignore any threads you don't like and don't feel compelled to contribute.
    my contributing post was a comment on this thread's premise and its subsequent reactive posts, and nothing more ... but i find it interesting that you twisted it into something it wasn't. what's even more interesting are the self imposed gurus who preach how to play and what to play. now that's stifling BS.
    Mandolins are truly *magic*!

  15. #34

    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    rfd's post does bring up a point, albeit maybe not what he was intending, the idea that what comes naturally is the best technique.

    For some reason, a lot of people mistakenly assume that being naturally inclined to speak means that humans automatically pick up *correct* language. What actually happens is that children are taught to avoid errors which others perceive as childish, uneducated constructions.

    To assume that humans automatically gain the most efficient picking technique, or even the technique which avoids injury over the long term, is misguided at best.

    It's also odd to assert that exploration and discussion of whether there are optimum ways of doing something is problematic or dogmatic... especially when that person is willing to offer opinions about the optimum approach on a variety of subjects.

    It's pretty funny that when people are talking about what roadblocks poor technique can out in the road, with solid examples given, the counterargument would be so flimsy, and basically an expressed personal opinion about not liking that others are expressing themselves. Reality can be hard to take....
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  17. #35
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Indeed there is plenty of mileage in whole question of whether a beginner starting out holding a plectrum in a way that could cause long term issues for them, is still not using a wrong pick grip. Perhaps because they don't yet experience discomfort and are unaware of what could happen, this would mean by some peoples criteria that it would be as valid as any other, even though doen the line it would damage them or limit their chances. However the premise could have been valid if it had stopped at the first part of the title, the second part needs too many caveats and could be interpreted in too many potentially limiting and potentially damaging ways.
    Being unaware of potential side effects of current techniques while not yet suffering the consequences does not mean they are right for you. As many have said above, proper guidance is important, especially first hand from people with the skills & care enough to look at your needs or spot potential pitfalls using their experience.
    Eoin



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  19. #36

    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    rfd's post does bring up a point, albeit maybe not what he was intending, the idea that what comes naturally is the best technique. ....
    that is Precisely what i posted - "...something that should be as naturally unique to each of us as walking and talking at the same time."
    Mandolins are truly *magic*!

  20. #37

    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    And I went on to refute that idea, using language as an example.

    To repeat: To assume that humans automatically gain the most efficient picking technique, or even the technique which avoids injury over the long term, is misguided at best.
    ----

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  22. #38
    NY Naturalist BradKlein's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Are you guys talking purely about classical mandolin? In the bluegrass, jazz, rock, pop world, and for many classical players (and putting aside particular folk traditions) -- I'm inclined to think that there IS a right way to hold the pick. And I believe that is now the orthodox opinion. It's the method explained many times by Thile and Marshal and you can easily find it explained by them and others on the interwebamajig.

    That doesn't mean that Sam Bush or John Reischman aren't terrific musicians and fun to listen to. But I suspect they'd agree that the T&M method is the optimal way to start, and the default best practice. Un-anchored, lightly closed fist, et c.

    Just as with the violin there are infinite variations, look at Michael Cleveland for example, but there's not much debate about the orthodox way to hold a violin bow, is there?
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  24. #39

    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    anyone who tells me there are specific "right ways" to play a mandolin are people i need to avoid. i should never have bothered with posting on this thread because clearly i knew there are always such people who have agendas beyond logic, reason and truth. my bad. please continue to talk amongst yerselves.
    Mandolins are truly *magic*!

  25. #40
    NY Naturalist BradKlein's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    i should never have bothered with posting on this thread ...
    Well it sounds as if you're much more involved in this thread than I am. I just breezed by and offered what I take to be 'conventional wisdom'. I won't get in the way of the loftier strivings for logic, reason, and truth. And don't even get me started on the Oxford comma! ;-)
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  26. #41

    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    If one defines the goal of holding a pick as being to actually pluck all four courses at a tempo sufficiently fast as to play what others recognize as music, then there are definitely *wrong* ways to hold a pick. For example, holding the pick clenched in middle of one's fist, so there is no possible cntact with the strings, would be wrong for that goal.

    In the same way, there are likely optimal ways to hold a pick, based on what one's ultimate goals are.
    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    anyone who tells me there are specific "right ways" to play a mandolin are people i need to avoid. i should never have bothered with posting on this thread because clearly i knew there are always such people who have agendas beyond logic, reason and truth. my bad. please continue to talk amongst yerselves.
    I'm curious, since you seem so outraged at counterexamples: is it so illogical,unreaonable and untruthful to note that some ways of holding a pick, like in one's closed fist so no string contact is possible, are sub-optimal?

    Or to note that there are likely optimal ways of holding a pick which remove impediments from achieving one's full potential?

    That closed-fist example seems so obviously sub-optimal that I'm truly curious why you're perceivably upset at having your viewpoint and opinions questioned, while claiming that an agenda is behind the obviousness of the example.

    Or is it that your stated views should be taken as authoritative in a forum of free ideas in spite of logic, reason and evidence... which ironically makes that acceptance an agenda?

    Could you clarify?
    ----

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  27. #42
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    you'll do what comes and works most natural to
    There is nothing "natural" about playing a stringed instrument. If it was natural, my finger tips would not have screamed in pain when I started.

    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    anyone who tells me there are specific "right ways" to play a mandolin are people i need to avoid..
    There is no "right" or "wrong" and no police to enforce it. But.... there is a standard way, conventional way, call it a recommended way if you want. That's really what we are talking about. Absolute rights and wrongs are beyond my pay grade.

    But certainly anyone can do anything they want, without so much as a knock on the door. Ask Kenny Hall.
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  29. #43
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Of course a knock on the door' can arrive later as pain. As just one illustrative example. I bought my son an Ibanes Artcore custom semi-acoustic guitar from a jazz player who could no longer play it and was reducing down to just using his Strat & selling anything needing to be 'driven'. He was unable to cope with the pain in his thumb. He realised that it was all the years of playing with one of those collapsed thumb joint grips that had caused it. The years of impacts had caused the thumb joint to crumble one edge against the other. He said if he'd learned to keep a curve the other direction it wouldn't have happened, as the joint would have had more support and the outside edges would not have been involved in absorbing the impact. Yet he was a very good player for more than 30 years with no indication of any issue in his chosen grip until a few years before I bought his guitar. Hearing his story & seeing the regret first hand, made sure I took the youngster to a very good local guitar teacher to get him going with his ergonomics.
    While there are many useful ways of gripping a pick or holding an instrument, I'd always advocate beginners get good & comfortable with the standard ones for your instrument and styles, before you customise them once you have enough experience to know if it could cause issues later.
    Eoin



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  31. #44
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Having gone through several pick grips, I can say there certainly is a right pick grip especially for you, but you may not have arrived at it yet. Until then, watch out what others do, find out the pros and cons of their effect and try if your special grip might lie in that direction. My own journey led me through a maze of control, volume and speed - I could not have made a shortcut, I had to experience all the dead ends myself to appreciate each step forward.
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  33. #45
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Come on rfd, don't leave mad. I would have agreed with "Your Opinion" long ago when I first started lurking this forum. Beanzy's injury example brings part of why your methods can be problematic. Many guitar players including myself bring what worked for them on guitar using a flexing pick. Guitar playing ergonomic worked for me for a few years but the stress in my hands made longer playing time painful. Eventually I put my mandolin down and stopped playing because of pain. After some recovery time and study of what was causing my pain I literally had to start at the beginning and reteach myself to play in a way that was pain free. I not only had to get a better grip on my pick but also had to stop fretting with my thumb behind the neck like classical guitar is usually played. The slanted angle and thumb positioning methods cured my fretting hand pain and the recommended pick grip took the load off my index finger and thumb.
    It took time to get used to these methods that eventually proved to be far superior than what I was naturally doing. I'm living proof of the above logic to good instrument specific methods of play. I'm glad your natural method is working out for you but their are too many of us that found out the hard way that our natural method hurt us.
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  35. #46
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by BradKlein View Post
    ...there's not much debate about the orthodox way to hold a violin bow, is there?
    Which orthodox way? LOL. Actually, teachers from different countries developed various distinct bowing techniques they passed on to their most famous students. Look at some old masters' videos. These techniques have gotten much more blended in this age of globalization. It used to be that you could watch films of orchestras from different parts of the world and see the differences pretty plainly. Now orchestras typically have musicians from all over, or who may have studied in different countries than they're from, and teachers teach hybridized methods they've gleaned from different schools, so it's a lot more subtle (in that you often can't say that this or that player learned specifically Italian or Russian or French school techniques), but I definitely see people in the groups I play with that have quite obviously different looking bowing styles.

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  37. #47
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    anyone who tells me there are specific "right ways" to play a mandolin are people i need to avoid. i should never have bothered with posting on this thread because clearly i knew there are always such people who have agendas beyond logic, reason and truth. my bad. please continue to talk amongst yerselves.
    So you would avoid the past master mandolin players that either wrote method books, taught students, or invented musical genres?

    They all thought there was a "right" way to play the instrument.

    Of course there are many "right" ways to play - what an Irish session player does is not what an Italian player does - then there's Bluegrass....Old timey.....Choro....of course Classical!

    Well, have fun figuring it out on your own.

  38. #48

    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    anyone who tells me there are specific "right ways" to play a mandolin are people i need to avoid. i should never have bothered with posting on this thread because clearly i knew there are always such people who have agendas beyond logic, reason and truth. my bad. please continue to talk amongst yerselves.


    Chris will be sad to hear you're avoiding him.

  39. #49
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    @rfd, I must have missed the post where somebody told you how you must play. It would be interesting to understand where the attitude is coming from. I assume that somewhere along the line you have been harassed by "self imposed gurus who preach how to play and what to play"? I'm truly sorry that you've had a negative experience. In my own life I've found that adopting a positive mental attitude and looking for something to learn from negative experiences is an excellent way of dealing with them.

    Right/wrong - optimum/sub-optimum - or a consensus of "best practices" vs. "poor habits"

    These are valid concepts, and fertile ground for personal research, trial, and growth.

    "Right" way to hold a mandolin or guitar: In front of you, with strings outward away from the body, in a comfortable position to pick or strum. I think there is a strong consensus on this. That is not to say that you can't hold one of these instruments behind your back, or on top of your head to play it. We've all seen it done. But that's not the optimal way to hold one, and any self-respecting teacher, or good Samaritan on an internet forum, will have definite, specific suggestions for how to hold such an instrument. You can play one of these instruments sans pick using your teeth to pluck the strings! And why not? Go for it! But it seems to me that logic, reason, and truth (no charge for Oxford comma) would rejoice in the promulgation of a more orthodox approach in general.

    I would doubt that any two people hold a pick and strike the strings in exactly the same way, for anatomical reasons if no other. There is an optimal way to walk - but infinite variety in gait.

    There is room for your opinion here. Sometimes we just like to discuss things that are interesting to us ad nauseum, we're doing it on our own time, and tend to react a bit when self-imposed gurus preach about what we should not be discussing. Food for thought.
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  40. #50
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    I was at a big bluegrass jam last year, and I stepped outside, and moseyed up to hear a little circle of 10 or 12 pickers under a covered area - there were others standing around listening. I heard a fiddle take a break, sounded great, but I couldn't see the fiddler! It was a mystery, didn't think much of it until it happened a second time; then it became a mission to uncover the mystery. I moved around and discovered that fiddler had her back to me; that is, I had come up behind her when I'd approached the circle, and she had the fiddle down between her legs sawing away!

    She was a cellist, and had borrowed the fiddle from a friend at the jam, and she was tearing that thing up! I love meeting new people at jams, never know what you might see - or learn.
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