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Thread: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way...

  1. #1
    Registered User Chris Rizos's Avatar
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    Default There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way...

    I have made a lot of experiments over the years related with the technique of holding the pick and I have soon realized that there is no right way to hold a pick. This is perhaps easier understood by the fact that many excellent players are using different techniques. So, I really liked how Yaki Reuven, the excellent classical (and not only...) mandolin player described his similar view about this subject, during a discussion we had recently (if you are interested check here) after I asked him about his rather non common technique, which you can see at the picture below:
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    I have noticed that some mandolin players from Israel (e.g. Avi Avital) use the same technique, but I have not seen any others outside Israel.
    So, what is your way and have you tried this impressive technique that Yaki uses?
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    correct, there is no right or wrong way to hold a pick for any fretted stringed instrument.

    attempting to follow known dogma can be like forcing a lefty to write righty. this is also true for fret fingering.

    i hold a pick by thumb and forefinger, with the other three fingers splayed out rather than curled under. to each their own, as it should be.
    Mandolins are truly *magic*!

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    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Thanks for sharing Chris. It looks like your technique is similar to the one I use but with the index finger moved over the thumb with the pick between thumb and middle finger. Does this give you more down tick support?
    I switched many years ago to Chris Thile's pick holding method from a more finger tip hold used by many guitarist. His technique was a big boost in available power and stamina. It was more work using your fingertips and more tiring to my hand. It wasn't easy to change but the change made playing easier.
    My fretting hand guitar technique also gave me a lot of grief in similar subtle ways. My left hand kept cramping up from extended play until I stopped using guitar bar chord/classical guitar thumb behind the neck methods and slanted my approach to the narrow fretboard. Luckily this was worked out long ago but I hope my example can alert others struggling with volume and control issues that can only be corrected with instrument specific technique adjustment.
    You may be right about the no right way to hold the pick or play mandolin but continued pain and discomfort should be warning signs to us all. If a method works well for you without excessive stress on your body, move on to more practice using it.
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    "There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way..."

    There may be no one right way to hold a pick, but I've seen plenty of wrong ways to hold it over the years!

    Thanks for the interview. Actually, the way he is holding his pick is very similar to the way traditional Persian tar players hold the mezrab.


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    Registered User Chris Rizos's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by hank View Post
    Thanks for sharing Chris. It looks like your technique is similar to the one I use but with the index finger moved over the thumb with the pick between thumb and middle finger. Does this give you more down tick support?
    Hi Henry,
    actually the technique displayed in the photo is the one used by Yaki Reuven. In his interview he says for his technique: "...My way of holding the pick is based on the idea of the bow. If you look closely, you will see that the first three fingers that hold the pick are very similar to the way one would hold a bow..."

    I personally have tried many techniques, and lately I am experimenting with using a different holding technique depending on what I want to achieve, i.e. closed fist for speed, open fist for more "expression" and softer sound and the list goes on.

    I am now experimenting with Yaki's technique as well, that gives the middle finger an active role, as the pick is held in place mostly by the thumb and middle finger and "controlled" by the index finger that has an equal role. This description may not be accurate, so I wonder what others are doing and if they have tried that...

    Very good comment about continued pain and discomfort, and also about the instrument specific technique adjustment. I definitely agree and understand it, as I am also a trained classical guitarist with decades of practice on my hands. Thanks for your comments!
    "No, improvising is wonderful. But, the thing is that you cannot improvise unless you know exactly what you’re doing." Christopher Walken

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    Registered User Ky Slim's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Rizos View Post
    So, what is your way and have you tried this impressive technique that Yaki uses?
    I agree that there is no one right way. I have tried something similar to that Yaki grip but have settled on a grip closer to the one Thile and Mike Marshall advocate. Sometimes my fingers want to spread out but I try to keep them lightly curled and I don't plant fingers. Not that it would be wrong if I did. Lately, I've tried to quit worrying so much about what my grip is or what my grip looks like. I'm trying to concentrate more on staying loose in my grip, wrist and elbow. "It's an egg. Hold it like an egg"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Rizos View Post
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    I have noticed that some mandolin players from Israel (e.g. Avi Avital) use the same technique, but I have not seen any others outside Israel.

    That Yaki grip looks very close to the pick grip that bluegrass monster Wayne Benson uses.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    There are exceptions, and often different schools, but that doesn't mean there are no standard ways of doing things. This discussion often occurs in the context of answering a newbies question.

    Everything I think about it I wrote here.

    Yaki is an amazing player, just other worldly. I worked with him at FMCM a year ago. I suspect his crazy good playing has a whole lot more to do with natural talent and much harder work than I put in, than it does with a particular pick grip.

    It could well be that there is developing an Isreali school of pick grip, which I think is pretty cool.
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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Rizos View Post
    Hi Henry,
    actually the technique displayed in the photo is the one used by Yaki Reuven. In his interview he says for his technique: "...My way of holding the pick is based on the idea of the bow. If you look closely, you will see that the first three fingers that hold the pick are very similar to the way one would hold a bow..."
    Hmm. I'm not going to argue with his proficiency level, but approaching a mandolin pick like a bow seems an odd way of going about things. The wrist motion required for bowing a violin is completely different than picking a mandolin, and obviously a bow is not shaped like a pick. I don't see how one has anything to do with the other, except for wanting to keep a light, fluid grip.

    The "proper" hold on a bow uses the thumb to curl under the stick, with the side of the forefinger used mainly for balance and pressure control, with the middle and ring fingers doing the gripping at the frog for a linear motion of the bow and the pinky providing balance on top of the stick. Wrist motion for bowing is mainly bending the wrist forward and back (flexion and extension). Mandolin picking, on the other hand, uses side-to-side bending of the wrist (ulnar and radial flexion) to sweep the pick pretty much 90 degrees differently than one would move a bow.

    It's apples and oranges. If his oddball pick grip works for him, great, but he is deviating from literally millions of other pickers who have pretty well figured out a more efficient grip. There may not be a "right" or "wrong" way to hold a pick, but there is certainly a "better" and "worse" way.
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  16. #9

    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    I naturally fell into the closed fist method like Chris Thile. I don't play at all like him though.

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    Registered User Chris Rizos's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    "There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way..."

    There may be no one right way to hold a pick, but I've seen plenty of wrong ways to hold it over the years!

    Thanks for the interview. Actually, the way he is holding his pick is very similar to the way traditional Persian tar players hold the mezrab.
    Thanks for the comments DavidKOS! I have seen my share of "wrong" or "weird" pick holding techniques over the years, but lately I am re-considering and I now think of them as different...
    Also, very interesting comment about the mezrab, I am researching that now... I actually have a good friend and professional player that is holding his pick like he is playing the oud (or laouto as we call the Greek version of it) and he is perfectly happy with that!
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  20. #11
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    sbhikes your closed fist is one of the most difficult methods to master. You are anchored but with much more distance between the reference point and the moving pick and strings. Many of us begin to close and open our hands as speed and accuracy dictate. When we move in and out of the strings for more and less volume the amount of change is so tiny that without a reference you are almost sure to move too much. Then your caught up into fixing what that caused.
    Most of us aren't willing to practice as much as it takes to pick accurately with the reference always so far away from the pick and strings. I think it's better to reference where you are from time to time. Arm rest and pick guards make an occasional reference check as needed available almost on the same plane as the strings. I humbly put this out there for folks playing with a closed fist having volume issues and preferring flexible picks.
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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Not sure if I am seeing this correctly, but what it looks like to me in the OP picture and the one David share is similar to the way I was taught to hold a pencil for writing in grade school - which was very similar to the way I was taught to hold a pick a few years later when playing guitar - if that's what I'm seeing, there are points of contact on the middle finger, index finger and thumb, all three. I used the pick that way for nearly 50 years - until I decided to change to the 'thumb & index finger' style after joining this forum and watching mandolin videos.

    My middle finger still comes into play on the rare occasion, but I've done a fair job of getting a new habit ingrained. Anyway, if that is what I'm seeing, it's not difficult using a pick that way. I can't imagine it would be like, or have anything to do with, using a bow despite what this master has said. I don't use a bow, so I don't know. But I doubt that he means to say he "picks as though he is bowing," I think rather he is finding similarities in the grips he uses on each activity. I equated the pick grip with holding a pencil, but the two are really far different. They both involve thumb, index and middle finger, and part of the pick's edge lies across the knuckle of the middle finger, like a pencil does, but that's the only real similarity. Since a pencil, or a bow, is cylindrical it wouldn't be possible to literally hold the pick as you would a pencil or bow, but similarly, and the similarities may not be immediately apparent to others who are of a different school of plectrum grip.
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Apologies for showing an image of my "ugly" nails, but in the interest of being understood, this is the grip I was taught. I was 12 or so when my dad let me take his guitar, and his method of teaching was to show me how to strum, show me a chord or two, and get me a book if I learned what he showed me. After giving me a method book, I was on my own. I can't remember whether it was dad or the book that showed the correct way to hold a pick, and mentioned the pencil analogy, but there it was.

    Frankly, I played the guitar after that, and among my friends at school and people I've played with all my life, no one has ever spent a second talking about how to hold a pick - and I've never watched any beginner technique videos in the modern age until I picked up a mandolin - so it's actually surprising to me that folk would think this type of grip is so strange. And discussion about bowing and complications with the wrist, etc. are really strange to me in reference to this.

    To each his own, I suppose. I do agree that a grip similar to what everybody's teaching in videos these days - using index finger and thumb - is superior in many ways. At least it feels that way to me now. It took some getting used to.

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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post
    Hmm. I'm not going to argue with his proficiency level, but approaching a mandolin pick like a bow seems an odd way of going about things. The wrist motion required for bowing a violin is completely different than picking a mandolin, and obviously a bow is not shaped like a pick. I don't see how one has anything to do with the other, except for wanting to keep a light, fluid grip.
    .
    Conceptually the bow is the pick is the bow....

    I agree, though, that bowing and picking are two quite different ways of making an instrument sound.

    This is also the theory behind those long Roman mandolin picks....they are more like a violin bow.

    Quote Originally Posted by hank View Post

    Most of us aren't willing to practice as much as it takes to pick accurately with the reference always so far away from the pick and strings. I think it's better to reference where you are from time to time. Arm rest and pick guards make an occasional reference check as needed available almost on the same plane as the strings. I humbly put this out there for folks playing with a closed fist having volume issues and preferring flexible picks.
    Most of us need to spend more time practicing accuracy. Me too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Not sure if I am seeing this correctly, but what it looks like to me in the OP picture and the one David share is similar to the way I was taught to hold a pencil for writing in grade school
    Interesting point. Consider that one of the older mandolin plectra was a quill, made much like a writing pen, and that in Italy a pick, "plettro" is also called a "penna".

    I do see some similarities!

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  30. #16
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Conceptually the bow is the pick is the bow....

    I agree, though, that bowing and picking are two quite different ways of making an instrument sound.

    This is also the theory behind those long Roman mandolin picks....they are more like a violin bow.
    OK, but there's still the issue that these are different instruments, and are held differently. A lap-held instrument requires you to put your arm pretty much in-line with the strings (or within, say, 30 degrees of it). Wrist motion is side-to-side. A violin requires you to hold your arm perpendicular to the strings, with wrist motion completely opposite so that the bow moves in-line with your arm.

    Using the pencil comparison... Holding a pencil to write requires the tip of the pencil to move sideways on the paper (in the X-Y axis), comparable to picking a mandolin. Bowing a violin is like using the pencil to punch holes in the paper in the Z axis.

    I don't want to belabor the point, but I just don't see how a similar approach to these completely different motions can be beneficial. We all know that the mandolin and violin share a lot of similarities, but the one thing that makes them completely different instruments (and worth having completely separate mindsets) is picking versus bowing.
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    I've been thinking about this since yesterday.

    If one defines the goal of holding a pick as being to actually pluck all four courses at a tempo sufficiently fast as to play what others recognize as music, then there are definitely *wrong* ways to hold a pick. For example, holding the pick clenched in middle of one's fist, so there is no possible cntact with the strings, would be wrong for that goal.

    In the same way, there are likely optimal ways to hold a pick, based on what one's ultimate goals are.

    As one example, if sustained tremolo is a goal, then hand anchoring will act against that goal. One would have to work on accuracy so as not to require anchoring in one's playing. Having fingers pointing towards the strings might also interfere with the movement of the picking hand, which is defintiely related to how the picking hand is shaped.

    If one prefers a stiff pick, that will affect choice of effective pick gripping, just as choosing a thin pick will.

    Pick shape also will affect the best grip.

    That gets to a differnt question: For any given set of goals, pick characteristics and instrument type, is there an optimum pick grip which eliminates introduced roadblocks on the path towards achieving those goals? I suspect the answer is yes, with the picking grip and technique becoming more refined as one adds more conditions.

    So, if my goal is to pick simple tunes at home slowly, without having to play at session or gig speed, just about anupythbg will work.

    If I'm practicing on top tremolo speed across different combinations/permutations of courses, there are roadblocks I should avoid, which narrows my "design space" for optimum pick type, grip and technique.
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  34. #18
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post

    So, if my goal is to pick simple tunes at home slowly, without having to play at session or gig speed, just about anything will work.
    While you are not wrong, here is the pitfall, IMO.

    I think that we will forget over time all the little sub-optimal compromises we made because for what we do now it doesn't matter. Eventually we feel like expanding our repertory or playing out some or what ever new adventure seems interesting. The adventure requires skills just a little beyond our present level, so we work at it a bit. And what we find is that we reach a plateau where we just can't make any progress.

    And, I believe, it is all the different sub-optimal habits we have acquired, consciously and accidently, which didn't matter before but matter now. Because of our pick grip, or the way we hold the instrument, or our fingering technique, whatever, progress is just that much harder than it needs to be. And we become motivated to give up on our little adventure and go back to the level at which we did just fine thank you very much.

    Some of this cannot be avoided because we all started where we started, and we all have issues to address. But the closer one can get to standard techniques, even before we "need" to, I think, the less of these plateaus will dishearten us, and the more we can get on to the adventures.

    IMO YMMV etc.
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  36. #19
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Re: Tobin's points, they seem sound to me, and I know nothing of bowing at all. Where I think there is a disconnect is that perhaps you're reading too much into it. Having now read the interview, I can see why the conclusion could be made that Jacob Reuven is saying that he picks as though he is bowing, but there is more than one way to read or interpret what he is saying. He does not ever mention motion at all, and I believe that everything he says is in the context of pick grip only. What could be confusing is the one sentence about technique, but if taken in context the assumption is that he is talking about "pick grip technique" only, not all the various details of picking motions. Obviously he plays well, and watching him play it should be equally obvious that he's not attempting to use a pick just as he would use a bow.

    No one told me when I was a kid to use a pick as I would use a pencil, what was used was an analogy of how to grip the pick.

    Also, when holding a pick as in my own photo above vs. holding it between thumb and index finger, my hand, my wrist and the tip of the pick are in much the same position.

    Accuracy - since I was never a very accurate player I don't know how much a different pick grip might affect accuracy. I'm pretty much equally inept and inaccurate at all styles of playing or picking.
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  38. #20
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Also I think it is important to learn from teachers, as opposed to trying to emulate our musical heroes.
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  40. #21
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Re: Tobin's points, they seem sound to me, and I know nothing of bowing at all. Where I think there is a disconnect is that perhaps you're reading too much into it. Having now read the interview, I can see why the conclusion could be made that Jacob Reuven is saying that he picks as though he is bowing, but there is more than one way to read or interpret what he is saying. He does not ever mention motion at all, and I believe that everything he says is in the context of pick grip only. What could be confusing is the one sentence about technique, but if taken in context the assumption is that he is talking about "pick grip technique" only, not all the various details of picking motions. Obviously he plays well, and watching him play it should be equally obvious that he's not attempting to use a pick just as he would use a bow.
    Well, yeah, I would assume he's not trying to use actual bowing motions, and is only talking about pick grip.

    But my point is that the wrist motion and shape of the device (pick, bow) is what dictates the grip. You could grip a bow like a hammer, but would it be suitable for the wrist motion you would need to bow a violin? And similarly, you could grip a pick like holding a cigarette (between the index and middle finger), but would it suit the wrist motion?

    When considering the most effective way to play an instrument, we first have to look at what the sound-producing device has to do in order to produce the best sound. Then we find the best way to hold it and move our body parts to make that happen most effeciently and fluidly. This is why mandolin picks and violin bows are (and rightly should be) held differently.
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  42. #22
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Tobin, I like your punching holes in the paper in the Z axis comparison. Definitely not the same body mechanics. I believe his technique and bow comparison are about the way a pick sides on the string like a bow. Our picks sweep is short and percussive but they are nonetheless similar. We slant our picks as we push and pull the plectrum across the strings to get this brushing sweep. If the first picks were quills the pencil grip makes more sense to facilitate this slanting sweep with a round grip. The later long pointy picks could be brushed across the strings in broader sweeps than with picks we use today. They really were trying to mimic a bows longer contact. Today's Bluegrass inspired constant ticking up and down often at breakneck speeds requires a different hold that takes muscle stress out of the fingers and delivers the power to push an f hole mandolin to it's potential. Interesting though, two very different approaches.
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  44. #23

    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by hank View Post
    I humbly put this out there for folks playing with a closed fist having volume issues and preferring flexible picks.
    You know, I think I finally figured out the "you're too quiet" thing last night. My friend was playing and said he couldn't hear me. I said, "Really?? You couldn't hear me? Because I was playing super loud with this new pick that is super loud." He replied, "Well, I could hear you just fine until I started playing my fiddle."

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  46. #24

    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    While you are not wrong, here is the pitfall, IMO.

    I think that we will forget over time all the little sub-optimal compromises we made because for what we do now it doesn't matter. Eventually we feel like expanding our repertory or playing out some or what ever new adventure seems interesting. The adventure requires skills just a little beyond our present level, so we work at it a bit. And what we find is that we reach a plateau where we just can't make any progress.

    And, I believe, it is all the different sub-optimal habits we have acquired, consciously and accidently, which didn't matter before but matter now. Because of our pick grip, or the way we hold the instrument, or our fingering technique, whatever, progress is just that much harder than it needs to be. And we become motivated to give up on our little adventure and go back to the level at which we did just fine thank you very much.

    Some of this cannot be avoided because we all started where we started, and we all have issues to address. But the closer one can get to standard techniques, even before we "need" to, I think, the less of these plateaus will dishearten us, and the more we can get on to the adventures.

    IMO YMMV etc.
    I've known players who decided to relearn their basics, whether picking, embouchure, fingering/fretting hand, etc. They set aside their previous habits and learn the optimal techniques, the ones which have proven their success. They come out the other side of that initially slow relearning period, and find improvements all around over their previous technique.

    I've also known people who have argued against following the best practices which have been refined over past centuries, often citing a few examples (or just one) of outliers who had success with something unorthodox. This, of course, ignores the possibility that the outlier has actually limited his or her success by using a limited technique.

    I had a friend who is brilliant, and who argued that sustained pot smoking hasn't had any effect on her college work. When I asked her about friends of hers who also smoke a lot of pot, and her own stories regarding their impairments from such usage, I asked her directly: Is it possible that the pot actually affects you, and that you'd have accomplished *more* without it? Is it possible that you have had the same proportional impairment that your friends have, but your initial potential was so high that you haven't noticed that you aren't reaching it? She quit a little afterwards, and told me much later that she noticed the difference and stayed quit.

    As to how motivated someone is to defend a less efficient technique instead of considering if they could be mistaken, there's always going to be some of that. The problem is, those who are relatively inexperienced might not hear the other side of the discussion, and might adopt roadblocks which will later impede their progress, if not stopping it altogether.
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  47. #25
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: There is no right way to hold a pick. There is only your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by hank View Post
    I believe his technique and bow comparison are about the way a pick sides on the string like a bow.
    Really? You may be right, Hank, but I still think that's reading too much into that paragraph. He specifically referred to "holding the pick" in every sentence of his answer except the one that mentions "technique" - so it's conjecture to think "technique" there is more about the strokes than the grip.

    At the bottom of it, he gripped a pick in a similar way that his fingers felt on a bow, and he learned to play that way, got the results he wanted, and probably doesn't think much about it until someone brings it up. This is just my 'uninformed opinion', but I think that if anyone believes trying to learn to hold a pick like he does will help their technique, they may be disappointed in that.

    I personally played with a similar, I believe, pick grip all my life and never thought about it. I've never been a hotshot on guitar, but as a rhythm player I've held my own for many years with amateurs and professionals. I went through the real difficulty of changing my pick grip two years ago, mostly by faith that it would help me with mandolin, and I believe my technique is much better because of it. After getting involved in this thread, I tried to play Whiskey Before Breakfast and a few other tunes with that 'pencil grip' and found it nearly as awkward now as the re-training was a couple of years ago. Not even worth trying to make a point in a video.

    My point is not that his grip is a great technique, my point is that someone who learns to play that way can do just fine with it and not think much about it. I myself did it for nearly 50 years, and obviously he does it. It never bothered my wrist one bit, I was picking Wildwood Flower as a kid, boom-chicking country music, learning Richie Havens-type rhythm chops, etc. etc. and never once thought about the pick grip, which I had been taught as correct.
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