Character over practice?

[Charlieshafer]

That is much more than many technique wizards have to show. The good musician steps aside and does not stand in the way of the power of the music. That requires feeling the music, and it is the most expressive device I know.

Expression does not mean you have to actually press anything out

Yup. A bunch of the really fine violinists I work with all really want to achieve the perfect zen one-note solo, which grabs at the lister's heart with sadness, pathos, love, anger, excitement, joy and every other emotion on the spectrum. All out of one note. After one show, an audience member came up to Darol Anger and said something to the effect of, "I can't believe how many notes you get packed into one solo so effortlessly." Darol looks at both of us and says, "Dang, I was shooting for just one note."

[Jim Garber]

Exactly correct. All one needs, besides the technical abilities, is an understanding of the music, the culture, the context, and perhaps the audience's expectations.

That's where I am stuck, because I can't see what all of that has to do with expressing myself (narrowly defined). I want to play music, share a great tune, express only perhaps my enthusiasm for the great tune. I have nothing more to express.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your analysis. IMHO there is something else beside technical ability and understanding the other things you mention. In addition to the fact that none of us are completely alike with physical differences (musculature, size of fingers and hands, flexibility of joints and the like), what is it that differentiates one musician in a particular musical genre from another? I can listen to a bunch of top-level fiddlers playing the same Irish tune, possibly even from the same town and yet there are differences in their playing and interpretation of that tune. Same with any other genre.

It seems tho, that you have a problem with expressing one's self in music. But, we do make choices as we play even within a simple fiddle tune. I may play that tune ten times but each time I might put more emphasis on one note over another, leave out some notes, play different doublestops, play the tune in a lower or higher octave. And that may be within a more subtle improvisation genre than say jazz or bluegrass. Even in classical, supposedly more rigid, there are choices of tempo, phrasing and even ornamentation. Why choose one of these alternatives over another? These are choices that a player makes to put himself or herself into the music.

[JeffD]

Expression does not mean you have to actually press anything out

That is the crux of it, expression seems to imply something to express.

[JeffD]

I see this in the music teachers recommendations to learn to play expressively. Example:

Music is a form of expression. Expression is the process of making known one’s thoughts or feelings.

In the context of playing a piece of music you did not write, this is incorrect. Expressive playing is the process of making known the feelings the author of the piece intended, or likely intended, or the feelings you interpret the piece to have, or a different set of feeling you think would be interesting for the piece to have. It has no necessary connection to the actual feelings you have.

[Bill McCall]

....... Expressive playing is the process of making known the feelings the author of the piece intended, or likely intended, or the feelings you interpret the piece to have, or a different set of feeling you think would be interesting for the piece to have. It has no necessary connection to the actual feelings you have.

The choices you make as to how to play a piece clearly express your feelings to that piece, which of course you have at the time of playing. Even if that's just a metronomic striking of the appropriate notes or a literal following of the dynamic notation, its your choice and feeling as to how that music 'should' be presented.

No matter where you go, there you are. And it comes out in the notes.

[Jim Garber]

In the context of playing a piece of music you did not write, this is incorrect. Expressive playing is the process of making known the feelings the author of the piece intended, or likely intended, or the feelings you interpret the piece to have, or a different set of feeling you think would be interesting for the piece to have. It has no necessary connection to the actual feelings you have.

So, expression in music in your view is entirely an intellectual exercise devoid of any emotional context you yourself may feel? Are you saying that on Monday a particularly skilled musician is depressed and on Wednesday, when he is having a much better day, his playing is not at all affected by his mood and that both performances are identical?

[foldedpath]

So, expression in music in your view is entirely an intellectual exercise devoid of any emotional context you yourself may feel? Are you saying that on Monday a particularly skilled musician is depressed and on Wednesday, when he is having a much better day, his playing is not at all affected by his mood and that both performances are identical?

Egad! I would hope so! Especially if you're playing for money, or just joining with friends to have fun with the music.

I guess I'm with JeffD on this one. Maybe we're just talking genre differences here, and not some Ultimate Truth about playing music.

What I want to do with the music I'm interested in right now, is be a conduit for the tunes. Nothing more or less. I want to "do justice to the music," whatever that takes. There is nothing of *me* in there except what I've learned about the techniques and context to bring out the music and make it shine. I'm a vehicle, not a driver.

Now, I've played in other genres where that's different. In Blues bands, I was a lead guitar player and I was expected to put something of myself out there in the music when playing solos. That's fun, but it's a period of my life that I aged out of, basically. Now I just want to do justice to a narrow genre of instrumental tunes that are much older than me, and played better by others, but I'm doing my best to be an interpreter and selfless conduit for the music. Do it justice, don't screw it up.

[catmandu2]

Yes, genre but more probably form has much dominion over relative liberties in the music. Ensemble playing such as session dance tunes are about uniformity for the most part (key, version, tempo, etc). But different forms, within ITM for example, such as airs, pibrochs, etc provide for ample "self" expression. Fwiw, im going the opposite direction in my playing - solo and slow music - where opportunity for "self expression" abounds.. Like TM said, "in the modern world, one doesn't play slow air."

[FLATROCK HILL]

Interesting how this discussion has morphed away from the original question. A question that made no sense to me until I read post #3 by Louise NM. As she said, (I paraphrase) for most of us, the character vs practice ship has sailed. It's the kids that need to have some balance in their lives to be happier, healthier adults.

As for the current discussion, all of this talk about putting ones own feelings and experiences into the music they perform is a bit silly to my way of thinking. When Bill said to the Bluegrass Boys "I want y'all to sing 'A million times, I loved you Bess" as opposed to 'Best', he wasn't expecting them to have any genuine affection for Bess. Just to sing the words. They did just fine.

[catmandu2]

As for the current discussion, all of this talk about putting ones own feelings and experiences into the music they perform is a bit silly to my way of thinking. When Bill said to the Bluegrass Boys "I want y'all to sing 'A million times, I loved you Bess" as opposed to 'Best', he wasn't expecting them to have any genuine affection for Bess. Just to sing the words. They did just fine.

Perhaps this is true of bluegrass. However there are many forms and approaches in music calling for exactly the opposite. And this makes for an interesting aspect for discussion: various forms, and the personalities inspired by them -

(*which, for my money, is a more intriguing topic than "character or practice" - for which I believe the answer is axiomatic)

Thanks to Jeff for eliciting it, and cheers for a good conversation

[mandroid]

Entertaining Character , on Stage. can make up for a sub virtuoso performance,
it is a show you are putting on, really.. stage patter..

[foldedpath]

Yes, genre but more probably form has much dominion over relative liberties in the music. Ensemble playing such as session dance tunes are about uniformity for the most part (key, version, tempo, etc). But different forms, within ITM for example, such as airs, pibrochs, etc provide for ample "self" expression.

Sure, I agree about slow airs and pibroch. But I don't think a mandolin is the right instrument to play those tunes, which I've covered in other threads here about the pros and cons of tremolo. It's why I've been learning Irish flute, but that takes us completely off-topic

[Jess L.]

My piano teacher used to tell me, "Put some expression into your playing." I was like, "What exactly am I supposed to be expressing?" I didn't feel anything, and the dots-on-the-page didn't inspire me towards anything in particular either.

I just didn't get it.

It wasn't until some time later (still a kid though) I took up clawhammer banjo and got hooked on modal scales.

Now *that* was some expression I *could* identify with, at the time, the modal scales (the usual fiddle-tunes dance music) were all it took to make me "feel" something to "express". I didn't even have to think about it, it just came with the music.

Unlike the prior piano music, most of which I really couldn't identify with at all.

So I guess it helps to be playing a genre of music that one has a 'feel' for, or can 'identify' with in some way.

In my case, I'd grown up with oldtime fiddle/banjo dance music, and the only reason I nagged my parents into buying me an old junk piano and getting me piano lessons (yup, it was my idea, opposite of normal) was because of one specific tune (Fur Elise) I'd heard a kid at school play, I thought it sounded nice, I was like "I wanna learn how to play that."

(Lifelong bad habit: hear cool tune, Must.Learn.How.To.Play.That.Instrument.)

But the rest of the piano stuff, the other composers and especially the modern dissonant pieces and exercises etc., meh, at the time I simply didn't sense/feel anything *to* express.

So I would play a piano piece like a robot, then my teacher and I would change places and *she* would play the piece, making it sound all syrupy beautiful and emotional 'n' stuff, with loud notes and soft notes and slow-downs and speed-ups etc. More than just a literal interpretation of what was written on the page.

That teacher really *did* know how to bring a classical piano piece to life, but she couldn't tell me *how* she knew *which* parts to "put more expression into".

(As to whether it was her own expression, or what she thought the composer intended, I have no idea.)

Without some explanation of *why* some parts needed more "expression", I was still in the dark as to exactly how to go about the whole expression thing.

Apparently, expression is something that can't be taught, you either have it or you don't.

I finally concluded that such 'expression' was unnecessary and I ditched the piano (at least the classical stuff) and went back to playing fiddle tunes.

With fiddle tunes, the expression is natural and obvious - make it something people want to tap their feet to, and dance to. Happy music or, in the case of the aforementioned modal scales, an unnerving aspect of melancholy but still with the background of a good solid rhythmic dance tune.

A good fiddler is certainly not playing a mere "simple tune" by any stretch of the imagination, but the 'expression' is more about motivating people towards cheerfulness, instead of the classical thing of wide variances of loud/quiet and tempo changes etc.

Addenda:
Since then, I've played some original expressive mood-music stuff mostly as catharsis for various things, it's helpful in that regard but I'm assuming it probably doesn't have a whole lot of market appeal. In fact, it has only limited appeal to *me*, 'overly' expressive music can be good in short doses but not a steady diet of it.

[catmandu2]

Sure, I agree about slow airs and pibroch. But I don't think a mandolin is the right instrument to play those tunes, which I've covered in other threads here about the pros and cons of tremolo. It's why I've been learning Irish flute, but that takes us completely off-topic

I was just about to retire when I reflected and realized - the topic is probably all seen from mandolin perspective. Oops (duh). (I have this thing about saying the wrong thing)

I have this image of Mr Monroe: "Welcome to the modern world, son"

[Bob A]

I dunno, all this is far beyond the reality of making music, and is more or less mere intellectualising of the possible processes involved.

After several years of playing, one finds oneself listening to what it coming out of one's instrument, and thinking "I'd like this to sound like. . . " and magically your fingers just go ahead and do it. You, the listener/player/observer, are expressing your unspoken wish of what you'd like to hear, and lo and behold, it happens! Or maybe not quite, so as the music flows through you , it is subtly changed until it matches your preference of the moment.

[JeffD]

So, expression in music in your view is entirely an intellectual exercise devoid of any emotional context you yourself may feel?

Pretty much, except how one may pull on one's feelings to find a way to express what the music needs. Not unlike a method actor I suppose.

Are you saying that on Monday a particularly skilled musician is depressed and on Wednesday, when he is having a much better day, his playing is not at all affected by his mood and that both performances are identical?

They should be pretty darn close. If the musician's job is to play that piece on Monday and on Wednesday, and to play it well, and to play it expressively, then what the musician personally feels on a particular day needs to be irrelevant.

[Bertram Henze]

If the musician's job is to play that piece on Monday and on Wednesday, and to play it well, and to play it expressively, then what the musician personally feels on a particular day needs to be irrelevant.

That about sums up what's expected from a professional. But if a musician is able to totally open up to his music, that should overwrite all of his own emotions he might have had 5 minutes ago, i.e. with the first few bars he plays of, e.g. Singing in the Rain, he should have forgotten that, say, his mother died yesterday.

I found I just stated another reason I could not be a professional musician.

[Beanzy]

For me I just need understanding of the musical intent and a desire to deliver the tune so it engages people, to which I apply the techniques needed if they are in my bag.

I've lost count of the number of times I've been in a lesson or practicing when the technique penny drops; "If you do this, it sounds more ......" Kerching! - it's in the bag ready to try where it may fit. So I am capable of understanding what is needed & have the tools to deliver. Then it's just a matter of adding that sauce to taste.

Apart from understanding and the ability to deliver what is needed, my character development would seem to be a bit of a non-issue in my music playing or the connection with others.
For that reason I suspect the use of 'character' in the original premise may have more to do with the character of the tune or song.
If that is the case I would say it is actually a question about understanding the musical intent and having the ability to interpret and deliver that. Musicians practice musical interpretation all the time & they sure need to practice the techniques needed to deliver that.
Understanding the character of the piece is one part of that, your actual character or persona would only seem relevant in so far as it brings you to to the current state of development that allows you to interpret the music as you do.
How many musicians talk about having a more mature understanding of a piece from their younger self?, I've certainly heard many.

I think it would achieve little to present it as one or the other, because developing a musical understanding and the vocabulary of techniques to deliver that are what musicianship is about.

[Dagger Gordon]

I dunno.

When I think of the hundreds of times I have seen musicians playing with their eyes closed, clearly 'away' with the music, I simply cannot believe that they are not expressing themselves - indeed often expressing themselves from a fairly deep part of their soul (at the risk of sounding completely new-agey).
In fact, why do people refer to music as 'soulful', if not that?
You could say it is the music itself (ie an Irish air, a hymn, lyrics, harmony, whatever) that is the real source of this and the musician is at the service of this music in some way, and that is probably true enough, but I definitely think it goes far further. If you are playing music at any sort of emotional level, it is way beyond practise (or merely technical proficiency) and certainly involves character (and feelings, expressiveness etc).

[Bertram Henze]

...but I definitely think it goes far further.

Sometimes I am down there, and I wish I could be more often. I have noticed that this happens when all technical worries have vanished, i.e. when everybody (not just I) has practised enough, which can be hard to achieve in a session. But it happens.

So we arrive again at that connection: no practising without character, no character without practising. It's a chicken egg problem...

[Ausdoerrt]

When I think of the hundreds of times I have seen musicians playing with their eyes closed, clearly 'away' with the music, I simply cannot believe that they are not expressing themselves - indeed often expressing themselves from a fairly deep part of their soul (at the risk of sounding completely new-agey).

I guess that's what it seems like to the listener, but from my own experience it has more to do with concentration and cutting off the unnecessary distractions. It may also have to do with enjoying the music, as well as feeling sleepy/tired. Finally it may be part of the (pre-planned) performance for certain styles of music.

[Beanzy]

I know exactly what you mean and I get in that zone fairly often. However it's no guarantee that the listeners will get the same effect. I've known too many performances where the listeners are left behind for me to equate the two. How many times has a song like Danny Boy been murdered by lack of musical understanding and a poor interpretation? I'd hazard a guess at most of the times it is performed. Yet when delivered with power and a well developed voice that can hold notes cleanly and true it even moves my tired old ears. I really don't think you have to be in the zone to deliver the goods, it's a bonus for you as a performer if you can indulge that, but the place where the reaction is needed is in the listener. As the saying goes; as long as you can fake that, you've got it made.

[red7flag]

I see this in the music teachers recommendations to learn to play expressively. Example:



In the context of playing a piece of music you did not write, this is incorrect. Expressive playing is the process of making known the feelings the author of the piece intended, or likely intended, or the feelings you interpret the piece to have, or a different set of feeling you think would be interesting for the piece to have. It has no necessary connection to the actual feelings you have.

Jeff, This is your opinion and not fact.

[JeffD]

When I think of the hundreds of times I have seen musicians playing with their eyes closed, clearly 'away' with the music, I simply cannot believe that they are not expressing themselves - indeed often expressing themselves from a fairly deep part of their soul.

Its all about authenticity. If you can fake that you've got it made.

I love those powerful moments in music. And if the player seems to be really feeling it, it sure adds to the performance, makes me, as a listener, feel more.

But I have never thought it was more than a technique to make the music more effective.

[JeffD]

I might be real prejudiced by my early experiences as a kid. It was a time when a lot of kids were taking up guitar, and the older ones playing Neil Young, the younger ones playing James Taylor. Kids who never saw drug abuse singing "The Damage Done" with full almost crying emotion. Playing down and out blues with a very expensive guitar bought by parents. Virgins who had never been far from home singing "House of the Rising Sun" as if they really meant it. Putting on the emotion to look like a sensitive-but-emotionally-unavailable-guy with that eternal two day need for a shave.

It was such an effective look for getting girls that it really got me all mixed up. On the one hand I desperately wanted to be that attractive, on the other hand I lost a little respect for girls so easily taken in by that persona, and I would not doubt that such confusion drove me to play the mandolin - to be cool and play music, but decidedly different than those Don Johnson wannabees.