Character over practice?

[JeffD]

If music is self expression, I should give up now. I have had no extraordinary experiences, no traumas beyond what is expected in a lived life, no direct involvement with anything of historical note, and as a general rule I am not all that touchy feely out of appropriate contexts. I can think of approximately 0.00 people who would have a particular interest in my life, or my feelings about my life. Well perhaps a psychotherapist, but not without paying a fee.

[Charlieshafer]

No, character has nothing to do with it, as plenty of great musicians have proven. It's all about becoming an excellent musician. Play the hell out of your instrument, be obsessed with it.

I'm just using this quote as a jumping off point, not because I vehemently disagree with it. However, playing the heck out of your instrument doesn't mean you're a good musician. How many ultra-long, self-indulgent, meandering solos have we all sat through? And yeah, even though a musician's personal character many not be the stuff of angels, that does come though in the music. When a guy is playing angry, a certain snap comes out in those chords or solos, especially vocals. You simply can not separate one from the other if you're looking for a complete musician.

[Tom Haywood]

"Hank, why must you live out those songs that you wrote?" - Hank Williams, Jr.

[catmandu2]

... I am just arguing that playing expressively is not the same as expressing yourself.

Could you elaborate? What is your concept of "self"?

[catmandu2]

If music is self expression, I should give up now. I have had no extraordinary experiences, no traumas beyond what is expected in a lived life, no direct involvement with anything of historical note, and as a general rule I am not all that touchy feely out of appropriate contexts. I can think of approximately 0.00 people who would have a particular interest in my life, or my feelings about my life. Well perhaps a psychotherapist, but not without paying a fee.

Music can be self-expression, and much more. That others may feel it is not, or do not desire it so, I have no quarrel with. Though I typically seek to compel others to search for more. Music can be liberating, enlightening, path to the self and beyond, and many other things. For me, it is a most effective method. I always say that it is a most effective means of probing our existence/experience.

*I hate to sound a charlatan, for there are many in our midst. Yet, IME, Art is an extremely valuable perspective. In fact, I find (playing) music to have greater existential meaning perhaps among all things.

[tiltman]

Interesting ideas in this thread.
I'm also a songwriter. My life (thankfully) has been relatively boring so I use the roads I didn't travel or the lives of others as material.
For example, I just finished a murder ballad (based on a true story) about a fellow who kills his mistress, gets caught, goes to the chair...
(probably few murder ballads written by the perp - none by the victim)
Can't a picker reach outside of themselves and their lives for material and expression?

Kirk

[foldedpath]

Withouth diminishing the value of art, I think it's okay to recognize that not all music is high art, or requires a deep well of self-expression to perform well.

In a few minutes, I'm off to a Sunday session of fiddles and pipes where I'll play what it essentially "happy feet music." Devoid of actual dancers, but that's what the music was written for... to get your feet moving and bring a smile to your face. Not a lot of self-expression or character required there, although technique and understanding of the music sure helps.

We might also play some slower tunes, including one or two with emotional resonance like Tom Anderson's "Da Slokit Light." This was written as a lament for a vanished home town (and recent death of his wife), and should be played with a respect for the context, but without going into syrupy, maudlin territory. Always a danger with this kind of thing. Again, it's more knowledge of how the tune wants to be played, instead of trying to emotionally channel the guy who wrote it.

The word "Authentic" was brought up earlier, and personally I think that's a slippery slope, best avoided in polite conversation. While I'm sure we'd all like to play in a way that sounds authentic for the style of music we've chosen, discussion about it often devolves into arguments about whose nationality and what race is allowed to play certain types of music. I'll just stake out one position there, saying I think anyone can play any genre of music, including ethnic/"folk" idioms, if you spend enough time studying and playing with the people who know something about it.

[catmandu2]

Withouth diminishing the value of art, I think it's okay to recognize that not all music is high art, or requires a deep well of self-expression ...

Otoh, if the "self" is involved, by necessity then it is "self expression." (But certainly I'm not suggesting that all "self expression" is art; but I do suggest that fundamentally all "self expression" - i.e. experience - is "authentic")

Re "authentic" - I use(d) it as a way of describing "original"; I'm often illustrating one spectrum pole of playing/music as experience = authenticism (from a fundamentally phenomenological perspective). (Personally I always offer the perspective during any such dialectic pertaining to "authenticity" as the forums will show over the years ; ) )

*I use "Art/art" here primarily as "a way of seeing/experience/perspective," an approach, paradigm, etc.

[mandocrucian]

[JeffD]

Otoh, if the "self" is involved, by necessity then it is "self expression.".

But its not deliberate self expression. If I ask you for a loan, I am involved and there is a lot about me you learn. But my intent is not self expression, its to see if you will lend me money.

(And in this example, I might deliberate edit what about me gets expressed in order to try and evoke sympathy.)

[catmandu2]

But its not deliberate self expression. If I ask you for a loan, I am involved and there is a lot about me you learn. But my intent is not self expression, its to see if you will lend me money.

(And in this example, I might deliberate edit what about me gets expressed in order to try and evoke sympathy.)

But this is making several assumptions. Not least of which - that we enjoy free will ; )

[JeffD]

But this is making several assumptions. Not least of which - that we enjoy free will ; )

Well if you back into the fundamentals far enough, everything becomes suspect.

[Mark Gunter]

Hey, hey, let's not move into ontological territory.

The thing about JeffD's writings is that they are usually thought-provoking observations. Those in this thread seem a little off-base to my way of thinking, but there has been some good, thought provoking discussion throughout this thread. Great reading.

[Jim Garber]

If music is self expression, I should give up now. I have had no extraordinary experiences, no traumas beyond what is expected in a lived life, no direct involvement with anything of historical note, and as a general rule I am not all that touchy feely out of appropriate contexts. I can think of approximately 0.00 people who would have a particular interest in my life, or my feelings about my life. Well perhaps a psychotherapist, but not without paying a fee.

Hmmmmm... I am a bit worried about you, Jeff. Are you looking way too deeply into this? Since when does any musician (or any artist) need trauma, extraordinary experience, etc. in order to create art/play music? Look, you can label it whatever you want... if you want to just play expressively and not include yourself then do that (tho I am not quite sure how to do that, but if you can then do it). I know from your countless posts (fast approaching mine in number) that you love the mandolin, playing music in whatever way you do, otherwise I doubt you would be here at the Cafe. IMHO no matter how you play, you put something of yourself into your music, unless, of course, you are a machine. Maybe just relax and enjoy doing it. As some very wise man said in his signature, "Fill your boots, man!"

[Bertram Henze]

If music is self expression, I should give up now. I have had no extraordinary experiences, no traumas beyond what is expected in a lived life, no direct involvement with anything of historical note, and as a general rule I am not all that touchy feely out of appropriate contexts. I can think of approximately 0.00 people who would have a particular interest in my life, or my feelings about my life. Well perhaps a psychotherapist, but not without paying a fee.

As a listener, I wouldn't want "extraordinary", but something I can relate to. I listen to music to have those of my emotions amplified that I like, and for that the musician should not be too far from me, mentally.
Take BG, for example: a cosy and comforting celebration of normality. And normality is becoming a rare commodity in this world.

[mandocaster]

I read album notes of some artist long ago that the song "Liberty" expressed the deep longing of Americans for freedom. Personally I thought that was a bit much, given that it's a happy little ditty without a lot of profound emotional messages. The same song could have been titled "Uncle Joe's Underwear" and been performed the same.
However, there is a language of music that touches a part of us that words can't. That language comes best from a player or singer who can connect with that place and is willing to let into their playing. If you are 4th chair violin in an orchestra playing Mozart it would be best if you tried to be a part of the whole, but the soloist better play with something more. Here I am dancing about architecture or however the quote goes.

[farmerjones]

I've seen it suggested more than once that for a musician to progress quickest, it's more important to be a well-rounded person, than to narrowly focus on technique improvement.

There is a lot of leeway for discussion here - certainly several virtuosi come to mind who were far from paragons.

Not that I wish to escape practicing scales and arpeggios - but does one's music improve more rapidly if one strives to improve one's character first and foremost?

Thanks for any replies to this vague philosophical question.

Imagine a person that has complex ideas they need to express, but all they have is a limited vocabulary. Or imagine a person that wishes to convey complex ideas but can't enunciate in his/her native tongue. As it's been stated, Music in every way can be compared to a language. As one develops, feedback will tell one what one must work on. One's own feedback will work fine for playing by yourself, to yourself. (nothing wrong with that) Which brings us to . . . .


The tangential part of the thread: Music as it is, is either yours, mine or ours. OIW If you play or write, in a basement to yourself, you may do whatever you please. If you play before an audience of one or more, you may not care, or be paid or understand, but you've jumped into an area where the Music is not just yours. You may or may not know or care, but your audience is opining as you play. You may choose to alienate. Make them happy. Make them sad. Make them neutral. If they're still sitting there at the end of the song/tune, make no mistake about it, you're doing something. I guess my point is to know this. This is feedback. Could be an instructor. Could be family. Could be a stadium.


I thought Liberty was a sailor's shore leave?

[Ausdoerrt]

The opening statement of this thread sounds like something that'd fit right into the "reasons to skip practice" thread

P.S. You do need to *practice* the technical skills as well as the expressive skills.

[red7flag]

It seems to me that creativity is limited by the ability to express it.

I do not like to practice much, but I know that acquiring a pallet is essential to express what is in my soul. When playing for people, I love when an expression that I practiced comes out in my play.

[Shelagh Moore]

I've met a lot of people with tremendous technical ability who are unable to convey the beauty, meaning or essence of a piece of music so in my view you need both, as well as the love of doing it as mentioned by Pepe above.

[Amanda Gregg]

A very narrow definition of expression is being employed here. One example of expression is, "I think the tune sounds like this." When we play music, we make choices. In doing so, we express ourselves.

[JeffD]

A very narrow definition of expression is being employed here. One example of expression is, "I think the tune sounds like this." When we play music, we make choices. In doing so, we express ourselves.

You are correct.

I guess it depends on what the OP is getting at. I took the more narrow definition thinking that one develops the character to express one's inner self in the playing of music. The broader use would be, as you say, expressing one's preferences and choices.

[JeffD]

Hmmmmm... I am a bit worried about you, Jeff. Are you looking way too deeply into this? Since when does any musician (or any artist) need trauma, extraordinary experience, etc. in order to create art/play music?

Exactly correct. All one needs, besides the technical abilities, is an understanding of the music, the culture, the context, and perhaps the audience's expectations.

That's where I am stuck, because I can't see what all of that has to do with expressing myself (narrowly defined). I want to play music, share a great tune, express only perhaps my enthusiasm for the great tune. I have nothing more to express.

[catmandu2]

We are actors, and the music is our script. And unless we are composers or playwrights, the emotion of the piece is not (necessarily) ours. If it happens to be ours as well that's interesting, but not very relevant, and doesn't make for a better or worse performance.

I would liken score more to a recipe, or datum. Sound is sculptural. The player uses color, shade, time, nuance, drama. There are far more aspects and dimensions to be considered. To distill music (or the social, psychological, and philosophical construct of the "self") into some kind of linear logic as you are attempting is missing much of the picture. Modernity demands that we deconstruct the whole and specialize in fragmentation in the effort to dispel mystery. What of imagination, intuition, art and poetry (symbolism), dance, existential awareness, love?

Attempting to faithfully reproduce music from a score from time before is one approach to playing, hearing, and appreciating music. This is just one slender slice of the enchilada, however.

Very often, one's enthusiasm for music is sufficient i would imagine. However, one may need further justification for involvement in music, such as you express. Have you tried improvisation, or composition?

An aside - you seem gratified by writing. Do you use imagination here? Are you interested in expressing yourself through writing? Ever borrow or steal an idea, or phrase, etc?

[Bertram Henze]

...express only perhaps my enthusiasm for the great tune.

That is much more than many technique wizards have to show. The good musician steps aside and does not stand in the way of the power of the music. That requires feeling the music, and it is the most expressive device I know.

Expression does not mean you have to actually press anything out