"Vive le Difference"
Absolutely solid statement Bob, I see the differences in cordial discussion here so refreshing, I learn something every day. If I don't, it my own fault. Many differing opinions make for an "interesting life".
"Vive le Difference"
Absolutely solid statement Bob, I see the differences in cordial discussion here so refreshing, I learn something every day. If I don't, it my own fault. Many differing opinions make for an "interesting life".
Timothy F. Lewis
"If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett
Adding wood to the tonebars would also add stiffness. The Virzi accomplishes extra weight without adding stiffness.
Other than adding weight to the top, and thus lowering the top's "tap tone" or frequencies a bit, I haven't seen any reliable information on what else it does. The "adds vibrations" argument doesn't really hold water. In addition I haven't seen any information on how and why its shaped the way it is. What does it's beautiful design accomplish?
It seems a fancy way to create a certain mystique around a "tone" producer. A beautiful design in advertisement and a beautiful way to simply add weight to the top.
Isabel Mandolins
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arche...50923841658006
First, it adds very little weight to the top. Whether this is enough to make an appreciable difference in the sound of the instrument as a whole is a matter of debate.
Second, it it is attached to the top, it vibrates. Whether this makes any difference in the sound is also a matter of debate.
Weight can be added to a top easily. The vibrations not so easily.
What this all means has not been determined, and, if past experience is any predictor, will not be determined in any conclusive manner.
Bill
IM(NS)HO
15 grams would be more than a subtle amount of added weight to a top that weighs 100 grams. Also just as important is where the weight is added. The center has the most affect.
Isabel Mandolins
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arche...50923841658006
Maybe testing a poorly functioning Virzi to the same mandolin without it is beating a dead horse. Are we lacking the context of the best examples of virziness compared to the already studied poorly functioning Virzi. What makes the best ones work?
"A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
CHAO-PIEN
Didn't Roger Siminoff do some Virzi testing with his "removable" back F-5 project mandolin?
I have some vague memory of seeing something about that in Pickin' magazine but, I was not always too sober back then, I could be mistaken.
Timothy F. Lewis
"If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett
I'm a 100% Bluegrass picker & if i owned a good mandolin with a Virzi installed,if i liked the tone,i'd 'make it work' in a Bluegrass context. If all that's required is a little extra picking power,i'm up for it. As regards having 'mellower' tone,that's exactly why John Reischman loves his personal Lloyd Loar mandolin,which he's referred to as having a slightly 'dull' tone - i'm sure that he means not 'bright',no way is that mandoilin 'dull',especially with JR driving it !!,
Ivan
Weber F-5 'Fern'.
Lebeda F-5 "Special".
Stelling Bellflower BANJO
Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.
My first build had a virzi installed, for no particular reason except I was curious. My second build didn't, and sounded better IMO (and is still my main axe), but that's just because I'd learned a thing or two and refined the dimensions somewhat.
I got the impression that the Virzi added a little "zing" and behaved more like a "tone averaging device" than a tone enhancer as such, of course "tone averaging" could be an improvement if the instrument wasn't perfectly balanced to begin with...
With regard to weight.... there are "English" mandolinettos (the ones with the picture on the back) which have flat tops and what appears to be a small metal weight screwed into the main cross brace... better examples of those sound way better than they have any right to... always wondered if it might be down to that lump or metal, but I've never had the courage to try and remove it from one to see...
I've never played one but if I could buy an old Gibson A or F with one in it and I liked the sound I'd buy it, or a new build from one of you fantastic builders? people well all of us have different opinions on what sounds good, some like more bass some more treble, different strokes.. Loar must've liked em cause there are lot in Gibsons in his last year with the company..And in his personal instruments I believe they had virzi's? I know loads have been removed from 20's F-5's and some regretted doing it. I can tell the sound difference in the A+B video's of virzi/non virzi. I like the sound myself. But as we know no 2 mandos sound the same anyway
Thanks for all the great responses. I'm building one now with Virzi. I will string it up
In a couple of days. I'm stoked! Loyd must have had reasons.
Randy Wood has my 58 F-5 that I bought on the real cheap cause the neck was a re-neck and terrible!!! I wonder if I should have him install one cause I told him to rip the tone bars out and put em in Loar style-one problem though 58's are Sitka topped rather than the pre-war red spruce I talked to Dawg about it and he said no way would he do it Not saying Dawgs a chicken but he knows what he likes and I'm a guy of many flavors!
Loar's F5 (#75315; Feb. 18th 1924) didn't originally have a Virzi. It was retrofit later, as were a few others of the earlier F5s, Loar's mando-viola (#70321) most certainly included.
Last month I checked out 4 Loars and one post-Loar Fern within one week, two of the Loars with Virzi (one retrofit, one original). They all sounded great. The Virzis I found a tad less loud with a little bit of the chorus effect that Gail describes. As far as I understand it, Virzis absorb certain frequencies that I don't think I want to miss.
Here's John Monteleone's assessment (Mandozine):
"This mandolin had originally sported a Virzi tone reducer in it, which was removed before I worked on it. Once a Virzi is removed there are two remaining notches left on the inside wall of each tone bar, where these stupid things used to be attached. I don't know what they were thinking. But I would have loved to have overheard the convincing salespitch that Mr. Virzi sold to Mr. Loar. Amazing!"
(John talks about Mike Marshall's Loar here, which I know quite well and find very nice sound - after Virzi removal and regraduation.)
Matt Morgan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jztTl1mas94
Randy is the conversion Man, he also has a 34 F-7 of mine thats getting a 5 scale maple neck/replica 7 inlays everywhere/radiused ebony board/tone bars taken down, he said graduations were fine..He's done 2 other F-7's for me and they are gnarly loud and great tone color to em. Each one is different, I've had a lot of high dollar mandolins and well they went I kept the 7's!
I believe those "clef shaped openings" are mostly cosmetic. Yes the base of the feet is glued right across them. Here's a picture of what we've been discussing. This Virzi was broken into pieces during removal, so there's missing wood, but you get the idea.I don't understand how the mount is attached across the clef shaped openings on the disk. Does the design purposely use this to dampen some of the flexibility put in by the clef cutouts?
Steve
Many years ago some friends of mine found one on the back of their family piano. It was also an upright but the Virzi was closer to the soundboard than your example. (When I look at your pictures, given the short foot pictured, I think the photo of the back of the piano was staged after the Virzi had been removed, and they just propped it in place instead of placing it in the original position next to the soundboard.)Here is an piano version I found when surfing the topic.
There were two brands of pianos that used Virzi Tone Producer. Can't remember the names at this moment. Here's a magazine article showing one on a grand piano, plus a violin.
Steve
Is there room here for a discussion of the differences between f-holes and ovals concerning the Virzi? It seems to me that the same quality which one picker thinks subtracts from an instrument with f-holes would be seen by a different player as a welcome addition on a mandolin with an oval hole.
In the name of balance, here's Lynn Dudenbostel's assessment (also Mandozine):
"I like 'em. Got one in my personal A-5. Wouldn't take it out for anything. 'Nuf said. -- Lynn Dudenbostel
P.S.-I have been thinking of a new Virzi option on my mandolins for those who kind of want one, but are undecided. For $250, I'll take a Virzi, smash it to bits, put it in a plastic bag so they can carry it around in their case and show people. Saves about 2 hours of labor.... no installation, no Virzectomy procedure!"
Earlier today I was a man of few words, but the solitude of the shop (right... all the kids are home from school today because of the snow!) got me thinking about the issue. I truly believe that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or in this case, the ear or the listener. Virzi type appendages, to me, are a lot like fossil ivory for guitar bridge pins/nuts/saddles. Does it make the instrument sound better? Well, I always tell customers that it will definitely make it sound different, and if that difference is good to their ear, then yes, it is better.
Back a few years ago I had the good fortune to play about 8 different Loar F-5's over a period of a couple of weeks. This was before the days of LoarFest at IBMA (thanks to Charlie D. and Andy Owens for organizing that event!). Obviously, I liked some better than others, but there were some outstanding instruments in that sampling, including Grisman's '22. David's '22 was a standout for me, powerful, full bodied, just everything you'd want in a mandolin. A couple of the others I would rate as exceptional even among Loars. But, the last one of this series I happened to run into while visiting a colleagues shop was a '24 in for repair and was the only one of the lot with a Virzi. It didn't really have quite the power and cutting qualities of David's '22, but I will tell you, there was a sweetness and rich quality to the tone that I heard in none of the others. I was really taken with it. There are other examples of Virzi Loars that I believe to be outstanding, a July 9th, '23 with a one piece back (sold by Mandolin Brothers a few years back), and a Feb. 18, '24 that I worked on for a gentleman from GA just this past summer. There are others too. Again,others may disagree with my ear, but these are the sounds I like.
Would I recommend the Virzi for everyone? No, of course not. For a great bluegrass player like Mike Compton or Ronnie McCoury, no, but for someone like Chris Thile who plays such a variety of music, it can be a good thing. Chris' solo CD "Not All Who Wander Are Lost" and the latest Nickel Creek CD "This Side" and a few Cuts on Bela Flecks "Perpetual Motion" release were all recorded with a Virzi-fied F-5 that I delivered a couple of years ago. Dolly Parton's "Little Sparrow" and the self titled "Nickel Creek" CD were recorded with a very similarly spec'd non-Virzi'd mandolin of mine. When Chris went in the studio with the new Virzi instrument (it was about 3 weeks old) to record "Not All Who Wander..." the engineer told him that the new mandolin mic'd and recorded better than the other one. To my knowledge, the Virzi is still in that one (although the peghead scroll is missing in action!).
I hear a different focus on sound with the Virzi, a different projection,and a different balance and sustain. I have one in the current batch of 5 mandolins I'm working on with the dreaded little disc. It will be the last one in this batch and I'm anxious to hear it. It will be similar to my personal A-5 with a Swiss spruce top. If the sound is anything like the A-5, I'll consider it a success! -- Lynn Dudenbostel
"VIRZI'S--- Live Long and Prosper!"
1924 Gibson A Snakehead
2005 National RM-1
2007 Hester A5
2009 Passernig A5
2015 Black A2-z
2010 Black GBOM
2017 Poe Scout
2014 Smart F-Style Mandola
2018 Vessel TM5
2019 Hogan F5
Is that pine or wide grained Spruce? How did you fit the feet to your cross braces and top?
"A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
CHAO-PIEN
Steve thanks for helping with the staged photo I agree. It looks like the mounts on the piano version were only glued in the center between the clef cutouts.
If I reverse engineer the center plate based on our carved plates the reflex area should be close to a lite weight more central mount with the heavier mass encircling it to increase the arc of it's movement. The disk edge could remain thin growing mass with diameter increases from the reflex area.
Highhat cymbals are energized by their outer edges as they touch together when played by foot alone. They like the other cymbals are also energized by being struck between the center and outer edge but never the center. Perhaps this is why Loyd and the Virzi brothers put the mount midway in location to drive the edge arc of their plate.
Most likely a Virzi can be tuned to better fit its'box by changing size/mass/diameter and flexing arc.
"A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
CHAO-PIEN
Here is a comparison of two mandolins made by Mike Black, ff holes one with a virzi and one without.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRC5jhNfdIs
THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!
You are the MAN Robismi! Your willing to push out on this Virzi dead end brings you my humble admiration. Third plate mechanics needs new thinkers like you to buck conventional thinkinking to try new ideas and not be afraid to try something that hasn't proven to be a a product they can sell. You are the only fearless explorer of virzi worthiness. My hat is off to you. Thank you for your fearlessness against the fixed limitations human repetitiveness.
"A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
CHAO-PIEN
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