Virzi tone produce

[Robismi]

Thanks Hank for your thoughtful response. I am an experimenter in the mando build world. I'm looking for that elusive perfect sound before I consider myself competent enough to offer one up for sale. I have played and owned some great instruments. When I got my first Gilchrist (#62) in the eighties I was at a jam with Andy Owens in Texas and he had just become the owner of his Loar. We jammed for a while and he asked if we could switch instruments for a bit to try them out. I didn't know a whole lot about Loars at that point. What I clings to my weary synaptical pathways is Andy's comment that he like my Gil better than his Gibson. He later bought my Gil and he told me he immediately sold it to Charlie Derrington who in turn took it apart and blueprinted it. I now own a Derrington era Flatiron which seems like a dead knockoff of The Gil. That is an interesting piece of the history of Gibson mandolins.

To expound a bit more on my Virzi build, I did not go down that road without a whole lot of research. I found out that Loar secured his VTP with nails. It is unseemly that anyone would want to put nails into a mando top. I surmised from this info that epoxy might harden closely to the sonic consistency of nails so I chose (gasp) to use it in lieu of metal. I strung it up white yesterday and I am liking the sound so far. It has an interesting sustain that I've not heard in other mandos.

My next build (#4) is a repeat of #2 with a redwood top, maple rim and mahogany back. #2 sounds so good I found enough great Tonewoods to build three more. So for now I will alternate between Virzi build with traditional Tonewoods and the redwood build. That should get me well into 2018. Not much else to do in the high plains of western Nebraska in the winter.

[Robismi]

Oops

[Bob Clark]

Hi Robismi,

That was a very interesting post. Please keep us informed about your progress. I am very interested in hearing about what you will learn.

Best wishes,

Bob

[Robismi]

Hi Robismi,

That was a very interesting post. Please keep us informed about your progress. I am very interested in hearing about what you will learn.

Best wishes,

Bob

Thanks Bob, I'll do my best post my progress. Here is an image of my VTP build strung up white.

[Loudloar]

I've been thinking about the Virzi Tone Producer. It adds just a little bit of weight to the top and produces a richer, slightly dampened tone. It occurred to me that it's providing a similar function as the popular Roth Mute does on bowed instruments. The Roth mute provides only a subtle difference in tone, unlike a practice mute which is designed to kill as much sound as possible. Fiddle players often use a Roth mute to take the edge off their tone and provide a richer sound. Maybe we need a Roth mute for mandolins?

Steve

[Robismi]

Interesting. Thanks for that choice bit of info.

[JFDilmando]

This last mention of the Roth mute for a violin, makes me think of my recent experience with the "new" bridge top, that Willy Hutchins has started to design and experiment. I was afraid that it might result in a mute, but it really does not detrimentally do that... but perhaps gives a slight change in tone.... how and plus or minus, I have not really determined to my satisfaction as yet.

[hank]

John can you share a photo of Willy's Bridge saddle?

Robismi That's a great story. It reminds me of a caduceus. Mr. Gilchrist feeds off Gibson Loar Era ideas and grows till Gibson feeds on his Ideas. I wish we could get our hands on his F4 graduations to compare with Gibson's.

Back to Virzi thought. Wouldn't hide glue eliminate the gasket effect of epoxy and it's tendency to creep? We don't glue internal braces in with epoxy for the same reason. Also if the mounts are moved to act less like internal braces perhaps some of the damping could be prevented. The forward mount could mirror the bridge feet directly under them they would receive more energy and not add more internal bracing. If the rear mount is nessasary it seems to function as more of a fulcrum point than for energy transmission like the front mount. If this rear mount could be made to attach to the rim either with a horizontal or vertical crosspiece another area of the plate that is being dampened is set free. Another route to less damping would be to make the mounts your internal bracing and eliminate the tonebars, cross bracing or transverse brace normally chosen and perform the task with the mount bases.

[Robismi]

Hank, interesting ideas. I may experiment some in a future build. I am wondering why the cross piece covers pert the f holes. Perhaps the transverse mount could be scalloped in those areas. Food for thought.

[hank]

I'm thinking like this because many Virzi's do little more than massive damping without much chorus effect. No one is gonna like that, no matter what kind of music is performed.
Years ago Red Henry was generous with his maple designs and gave me some examples of his work when I ran some testing on flattop mandolins with his guidedance. His bridges are extremely lite weight and responsive so I'm imagining one on top, one glued below it both with his hole patterns to mimic a violin bridges springiness as the energy is sent thru it. If the plates center section mass is reduced with a center plate aperture opening under the bridge center cutout extending as far as nessasary to get the aperture tuned much more manageable Virzi and topplate mass Might be possible. The Virzi was born in a bowed instrument and kept way too much of the early designs need for the power of the bow. I want a more lite wt. responsive version that doesn't dampen without a powerful bow stroke to get it moving. These rambling notion aren't likely to help us unless we can get a computer model of what's going on and what kind of movement creates the best Virzi voice to join in the mix.

[William Smith]

I'm thinking like this because many Virzi's do little more than massive damping without much chorus effect. No one is gonna like that, no matter what kind of music is performed.
Years ago Red Henry was generous with his maple designs and gave me some examples of his work when I ran some testing on flattop mandolins with his guidedance. His bridges are extremely lite weight and responsive so I'm imagining one on top, one glued below it both with his hole patterns to mimic a violin bridges springiness as the energy is sent thru it. If the plates center section mass is reduced with a center plate aperture opening under the bridge center cutout extending as far as nessasary to get the aperture tuned much more manageable Virzi and topplate mass Might be possible. The Virzi was born in a bowed instrument and kept way too much of the early designs need for the power of the bow. I want a more lite wt. responsive version that doesn't dampen without a powerful bow stroke to get it moving. These rambling notion aren't likely to help us unless we can get a computer model of what's going on and what kind of movement creates the best Virzi voice to join in the mix.

Good Call on what could be done, are you also talking about a one piece maple bridge? I think I seen something like that on Siminoff web page long ago? or Fred Frank? where they used a one piece maple bridge and in the bottom base they drilled out holes in a pattern to reduce mass hence maybe more volume? It seems like you'd want a virzi that is lighter in weight to vibrate more freely I'd think anyway-All very interesting ideas along with what robismi is doing

[Marty Jacobson]

Not all epoxies are rubbery once cured. The main reason why we don't glue braces in with epoxy is that it's not needed, and it's not traditional. Repairing epoxied braces would be slightly harder than repairing braces glued with aliphatic glues, but not by much.

[hank]

I personally think this site is host to some of the greatest minds on the planet in our focus on the past technology of acoustic sound manipulation. Advances in this field have suffered tremendously by our arrogant know everything electronic age. My notions are based on crude cause and effect without the detail and exactness of math and models to refine and understand the merits of this center node anchored third plate from so long ago. We need to interest our greatest luthiers and scientist to stop looking at it in such a negative way if progress in design can continue.

[pops1]

I have been reading this and liking the sound of the Virzi. I have a Brentrup and the top is thicker, heavier than other mandolins. You can't play to hard, it handles anything. The sound is so rich I am now wondering if a light top with a Virzi would sound similar to a heavier top without the Virzi. Just throwing this out there for comment, what do you think?

[fscotte]

If you made your Brentrup lighter then you would be removing stiffness, and changing the sound. Your Brentrup sounds rich because its stiffness to weight ratio is correct.

Adding weight for the simple reason of adding weight is never a good idea IMHO. A virzi is doing just that. Now find a way to add stiffness by removing weight.... Now you're on to something. Tonebars do this somewhat, replacing weight with more stiffness.

Think of it the same way you think of your gut... More weight slows you down and makes you lethargic. Its doing that to a mando top as well. Stiffness is the muscle, what we all want right? Problem is they go hand in hand. More stiffness, more weight.

[Robismi]

I'm hearing some chorus effect with the Virzi build especially prominent on the A and E strings. I'm looking forward to working with some of your ideas as I build the next one. Thanks for sharing.
Robin

[BradKlein]

There are Virzi and non-V A-4 snakes at Retrofret in Brooklyn. I visited yesterday with two mando players with tons of experience in vintage Gibsons, and we all played and thought over the instruments in question and had a little Virzi chat.

My own take was that the Virzi A-4 was the Virziest instrument that I've ever played. Not my cup of tea (and I do fall in with the bluegrass and country types of players), but it certainly sounded unique and different. And that's something that the right creative musician might be able to use to great effect.

HERE is a link.

[hank]

The notion of using a floating crosspiece rim attachment to the rear virzi anchor point has helped me think about this in a very different way. Some builders have used internal floating carbon fiber tubes to lighten their build and counteract the stress created by larger string forces like in a mandocello. Why not use a similar floating longitudinal brace for both body strength and to mount the center plate. The mirrored bridge drive discussed earlier would only be glued at the center plate with topplate connectivity achieved thru loading between the two. This loading could be made adjustable at the aft end of the longitudinal support with a small slot and locking end pin configuration. End pin locked in up position towards the topplate engages the center plate. End pin locked in the down position could be used to eliminate the effect when desired. Now the top has shed the weight of a center plate and mounts and replaced it with an adjustable resistance or stiffness. Once repeatable results are achieved and the bugs worked out this adjustment could be eliminated in future builds for the sake of simplicity. This method of loading the third plate is similar to a violins center post loading two plates together. The violin bow is so much more powerful than our short percussive pick manipulation it has no problem driving the top and the back as one. I guess this all boils down to if a slight upward loading of the top thru only the area under the bridge feet can be managed more easily than 15 grams of flying wing glued to the underside of the top with two large unwanted transverse cross-braces.

[fscotte]

If the idea is to make the top lighter, that would mean sanding away wood. Sanding away wood to make it lighter would mean making the top thinner.

I believe we are already as thin as we want to be. Any thinner and you run the risk of deforming the top plate.

I believe Loar and builders from that point forward have already tested the extremes of a spruce top plate. Some got lucky, others, not so much.

[Marty Jacobson]

I like the idea of designing a user-selectable Virzi. It would allow apples to apples comparison which is usually very difficult when trying to learn from something like a Virzi (or wood species, or bracing, etc.).

Part of the reason I am excited to be working with carbon fiber is that I can eventually make truly identical instruments with only one variable changed. I think it will be a great way for me to learn more about differences in structure and their effect on tone without the uncertainty due to sample variation and human error so common in building wood instruments.

[Robismi]

If the idea is to make the top lighter, that would mean sanding away wood. Sanding away wood to make it lighter would mean making the top thinner.

I believe we are already as thin as we want to be. Any thinner and you run the risk of deforming the top plate.

I believe Loar and builders from that point forward have already tested the extremes of a spruce top plate. Some got lucky, others, not so much.

I build my tops as close to Loar specs according to Siminoff blueprints allowing about a 64th inch over in the critical areas for sanding. I am new to this and I hope my thinking is correct.

[hank]

Wes that isn't the idea. The plate thickness and stiffness requirements remain the same. The weight reduction in my example is from shedding the third plate and mounts from the top plate. The coupling is made thru a reversed bridge attached to the third plate only and pressed against the top plate in the bridges footprint area like a sound post. We might be able to add stiffness to the top plate without adding mass if you let the carbon longitudinal tube flex like a leaf spring. Who knows, the idea used without a third plate may be of merit just to add stiffness to the top.

[fscotte]

I'm having trouble visualizing the setup. Do you have a pic of the proposed design?

[hank]

Wes, this drawing is a starting point on a very crude conception.. Trial and error may eliminate my ignorance of the best way to suspend the third plate. This drawing has a center mount for both input and suspension but separating these elements might get the third plate moving with a less negative effect on the top driving plate.

[fscotte]

Ah... I see.. Definitely thinking outside the box there.

I wonder if the need for enough tension to keep the virzi from buzzing, would mute the top? And wouldn't the entire contraption weigh more than a traditional virzi?

Sorry, not being critical, just doing some "peer reviewing". Any new concept deserves serious scrutiny.