Terminology questions

[FatBear]

I'm looking for a new mandolin. I'd kind of like to play and/or hear with my own ears before I buy. Decent mandolins are very sparse in San Diego county so I'm probably going to have to consider an online purchase from somewhere. I want a quality mandolin, am not rich, and am not on an ego trip, so I'll probably buy used. There are a couple of sound quality terms that I need to aid in my search.

First, I want all of the strings to sound like they are on the same mandolin. I know that sounds weird, which is why I'm looking for the correct term for this. I was playing an import f-style mandolin at the GC the other day. The G strings were weak and extremely warm. The A strings sounded truly awful - harsh, abrasive, brash, I don't know how to describe it. The D and E strings sounded great.

Second, my E string plinks like a piano key. Some E strings really sing like they are being plucked by angels. This is what I would like. I'd like the A strings to sing as much as possible with their larger diameter, too. What do you call this sound?

If I've posted in the wrong forum, feel free to let me know where it should go and I'll try it there.

Thanks

[billhay4]

Balanced across the strings?
Bill

[mandroid]

Even harder to find in Scappoose, Oregon, I expect..

[MikeEdgerton]

Even harder to find in Scappoose, Oregon, I expect..

Expat Oregonian here. Scapoose is the center of the universe.

[Northwest Steve]

A or F style, type of music you generally play and budget?

[FatBear]

Even harder to find in Scappoose, Oregon, I expect..

I'm not so sure that's true.

I guess I need to change my profile. We are just moving into the Winter Palace down here in the REALLY HOT south for full-time retirement. Sure is a different world, but I bet the number of mandolins per capita is probably much higher in Scappoose than in San Diego county.

[FatBear]

Expat Oregonian here. Scapoose is the center of the universe.

I don't know about that, but it sure is a nice town full of nice people. It's still the old Oregon that I grew up in. And one of the most Google-friendly towns in the country.

[FatBear]

A or F style, type of music you generally play and budget?

A or F. In theory, an A and an F both made from the same materials to the same specs and with the same care should sound the same. (Or at least as similar as any two As or two Fs would sound to each other.) And the A should cost significantly less because it is so much easier to build. But I understand that this has got the A labeled as the "cheap model" to many people and so As are often built to lesser specs than Fs and so won't sound as good.

I know that Collings claims to build their As and Fs with the same woods and to the same specs. But I have only played a radiused fretboard once and that was years ago, so I don't know how well that would work for me. I know that J. Bovier claims to build their As and Fs with the same woods and to the same specs, but I don't know anything else about them. I'm sure a custom made one could be made however I wanted it, but it would be new and I'd prefer used. I think I can get a better mandolin for my money if I buy used. But I have to find it.

In the end I think A or F will be answered: whatever I can find that I like and can afford.

I play lots of different kinds of music. Mostly "folk", some Italian, a little classical, starting to play more and more blues. I play almost no bluegrass. Nothing against it, but it's band music and I'm a couch/patio player. (Gave up my bench by the river when we sold the floating home in Oregon. ) I certainly don't need an F for the visual appearance, vanity or because it makes me look like Bill Monroe. (It won't.) I care more about the sound than about impressing others. My dog won't know the difference between an A or an F, but she'll for sure know the difference between a good sounding one and a bad and I promise she will let me know if I get a bad one.

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't know about that, but it sure is a nice town full of nice people. It's still the old Oregon that I grew up in. And one of the most Google-friendly towns in the country.

I spent a lot of time there. One Portland radio station years back used to say "It's 9:00 in Portland and 8:57 in Scapoose!"

I have a friend that still lives in that area. The Portland I grew up in has been gone for years

[Kevin Stueve]

the sound you are describing is what I think the collings mt sounds like. I've also found it in some weber f styles I've played. I'm still trying to convince the wife that I "need" a new mandolin :D. But I stop and play them when I see them

[Walt]

I'm always surprised at how much disagreement there is over sound terminology. Even a term like "woody," which I assumed was pretty straight forward, means different things to different people. It would be nice if some enterprising individual would conduct a big survey and catalogue people's definitions of these terms so that we could try to come up with standardized meanings.
I'll try my best to explain what I think is the terminology you're looking for.

First, I want all of the strings to sound like they are on the same mandolin.

As suggested above, "balanced" is a good descriptor. Also "even."

my E string plinks like a piano key. Some E strings really sing like they are being plucked by angels. This is what I would like.

I think "sustain" is the word I would use here.


You also mentioned that your instrument is too "warm." I always like the way my electric guitar buddies describe sound: "fat" and "thin." Those words do a pretty good job of helping people visualize the sound.
Here are words I would associate together:
FAT: Warm, Dark, Bass, Full, Woody, Midrange, Thick, Rich
THIN: Bright, Tinny, Treble

And here are words that I have no idea how to categorize: Sweet, Bell-like, Bluegrassy

One final thing: online sellers are always going to present their instrument in the best possible light. There have been countless times that I've read an ad that says things like "Woody," "Banjo-Killer," A Real Cannon." And then I look at the pictures and notice that they've been using their Sears card cut into the shape of a pick and it's highly unlikely that they're getting sounds anywhere in the ballpark of woody.

My best advice would be to either (a) buy something that has a reputation for being a decent mandolin, or (b) negotiate a 48 hour approval period for the instrument. Best of luck!

[FatBear]

The Portland I grew up in has been gone for years

Same here. There are things I really like about the new Portland, but some good things have been lost, too. I doubt that anywhere has avoided that as well as Scappoose.

[FatBear]

the sound you are describing is what I think the collings mt sounds like. I've also found it in some weber f styles I've played. I'm still trying to convince the wife that I "need" a new mandolin :D. But I stop and play them when I see them

To quote the old Cat Stevens: "If I could see 'em I could get 'em, but as yet I haven't see 'em. That's how I'm in the state I'm in." (Or something like that.)
I wish I knew where to find a Collings to try out, just to see how the radius feels.

So are my sound objectives more likely to be found in a tone bar or X braced model? Or is it unrelated?

[FatBear]

I'm always surprised at how much disagreement there is over sound terminology. Even a term like "woody,"

I hope you noticed I was very careful not to use that word. My musical sound description vocabulary is very limited, but even I know to avoid that one.

As suggested above, "balanced" is a good descriptor. Also "even."

OK, and they sound right to me so I'll probably use them.

I think "sustain" is the word I would use here.

You also mentioned that your instrument is too "warm."

Actually, I didn't mention my mandolin. You're probably thinking of the G string on that cheap f-style that I was trying out. My mandolin is a Big Muddy and I've put quite a bit of work into getting the best sound I could out of it. It has the walnut back and if I'd got the maple back I'm sure it would be even better. I put a cast tailpiece on which helped quite a bit, but isn't the whole answer. Lots of messing with strings, new bone nut to fix a problem caused by the setup guy at the store where I bought it, and so on.

It does have a lot of sustain, though I don't think the E string has enough mass to drive that big flat top for very long. Or something. I think the attack/decay of the flat top -vs- the arch top is part of what I'm lacking in my Big Muddy. I really like my mandolin for many things - do you know you can use a slide on a Big Muddy due to the sustain? - but there are some songs where I wish it were arch topped. That's why I'm on this path.

I think sustain might be the difference between an arch top that sings on the E string and one that plinks, so I will add this to my terms to ask about.

And here are words that I have no idea how to categorize: Sweet, Bell-like, Bluegrassy

When you write that guide, be sure and include examples. I've heard all of these, but can't put my finger (ear) on what they sound like.

My best advice would be to either (a) buy something that has a reputation for being a decent mandolin, or (b) negotiate a 48 hour approval period for the instrument. Best of luck!

I will definitely insist on return privileges, but I don't want to have to use them. It may save me from a bad decision, but it will cost me round trip shipping every time I try one out. A few rejects could really run up the costs a lot. I also understand that some dealers are more helpful than others at helping choose the best mandolin. I plan to focus on them, first, but I do need to be able to describe what I'm after. That's why I'm trying to get some terms.

Thanks.

[Seter]

I think "chocolately" is my favorite timbre descriptor.

[Walt]

Actually, I didn't mention my mandolin. You're probably thinking of the G string on that cheap f-style that I was trying out.

Yes. My mistake; I misread your post the first time through. A bad setup can also create problems with a mando's sound. I wonder if the E string on that cheap F-style was making light contact with the first fret? Sometimes that can create a "plinking" effect.

I will definitely insist on return privileges, but I don't want to have to use them. It may save me from a bad decision, but it will cost me round trip shipping every time I try one out. A few rejects could really run up the costs a lot.

I know the struggle here. I just shipped a mandocello and it was $175 for ground shipping. We were going to do 3 day shipping, but that was going to be $400+. Luckily for all parties involved, the buyer decided to keep.

[Walt]

For sound examples:

This playing from Adam Steffey (specifically his work on this album "Every Time You Say Goodbye") is what I consider to be on the Fatter (warmer, etc.) side.


This playing from Caterina Lichtenberg is what I consider to be on the Thinner (brighter, etc.) side.


How much of that sound comes from the mandolin vs the player is hard to say. I'm willing to bet if Caterina Lichtenberg played Adam Steffey's mandolin using her same pick and technique, it would sound thin/bright. And if Adam played her mandolin using his technique it would sound fat/warm.

[Br1ck]

If your budget can go to $1500 or so, plus or minus, I think you could be happy forever with a Silverangel. Rich sound across all strings and the definition of warm and woody. A styles can be had for $1200 up and there is a new one from the maker available now. Really a lovely sounding mandolin that appear in the classifieds from time to time.

No reason you can't play bluegrass on it, but I'm looking for a brighter mandolin just for that, just mostly because of the disease.

I know the G string sound you are hearing on most imports, and I concur. But I must admit, it gets better as the mandolin breaks in over time, but you are taking a chance you'll never like it.

I think the term woody is descriptive of what I hear, but I suppose you could call a Telecaster woody too.

Have you played any old Gibsons? Love the sound of the late teens/early twenties A styles, and player grade instruments aren't too expensive. Love the white A 3s with the paint worn off from arm friction.

[Eric F.]

Same here. There are things I really like about the new Portland, but some good things have been lost, too. I doubt that anywhere has avoided that as well as Scappoose.

The house in Portland I used to rent for $325 a month has a "Zestimate" of $675,000 these days. Thought about moving back, but we couldn't figure out a way to swing it.

[LadysSolo]

I don't think you would go wrong with a used Weber or Pava (if your budget will allow it.) You also may need to experiment with strings to try to get the sound you want (it seems that different strings sound better on different mandolins - as I haven't tried them all, this is just an observation....)

[FatBear]

The house in Portland I used to rent for $325 a month has a "Zestimate" of $675,000 these days.

My folks got their first house in Portland by buying a chair for $35. The seller threw in the house for free. (Well, he threw in his equity and they took over the loan.) We fixed it up and sold it for $14,000 about 8 years later. That same house is now on Zillow for $814,543. It just blows my mind.

[FatBear]

I don't think you would go wrong with a used Weber or Pava (if your budget will allow it.) You also may need to experiment with strings to try to get the sound you want (it seems that different strings sound better on different mandolins - as I haven't tried them all, this is just an observation....)

I did have to try a number of string sets before settling on J73s for mine. I wish the G string on the Elixir lights was just .002 larger, then they would be my ideal set.
I've never seen a Pava I could afford. I've seen some Webers, but I didn't like the only one I ever played. Don't remember why now, though. I wish I had a better memory...

[FatBear]

If your budget can go to $1500 or so, plus or minus, I think you could be happy forever with a Silverangel. Rich sound across all strings and the definition of warm and woody.

I don't think warm and woody is what I'm after.

Have you played any old Gibsons? Love the sound of the late teens/early twenties A styles, and player grade instruments aren't too expensive. Love the white A 3s with the paint worn off from arm friction.

I actually played an old A00 (if I remember correctly) that had a beautiful tone. Definitely a player, not a collector, though. I posted about it here and the consensus seemed to be that they were asking way more than it was worth. I offered the consensus price and they refused it without even counter offering. It was a pawn shop. They eventually quit advertising it, so apparently someone thought it was worth more than I did.

I would definitely want to hold and play an old one like that before I bought it. It's a real pig in a poke, otherwise.

[FatBear]

For sound examples:

Thank for posting those! Is there a third sound? I didn't like the first one at all. I mean, it sounded great with that song (I probably could never do as well) but it isn't what I'm looking for for my own playing. The second was more to my taste, but the higher notes were still more piano like than the singing sound I'm thinking of.

[Walt]

Is there a third sound?

Definitely! And more! I kind of look at Fat/Warm and Thin/Bright as two ends of a spectrum, with unlimited degrees in between. There are definitely mandolins that fit in between the extremes. This is all, of course, a simplified way of looking at it, and these terms don't perfectly capture what an instrument sounds like. But I still find it helpful for tracking down the type of mandolin I like.

If you're looking for something in between, the teens and twenties Gibson oval holes might fit the bill. HERE is a video of one I used to own. Now that I'm listening to it, it sounds pretty fat in the video (I probably eq'd it that way because that is the sound I like). In real life, it was a good bit thinner than my other mandolins. I'll see if I can track down some more sounds.