upper range

[mandocaster]

High C and higher. Quite a few rags have whole sections up there. Jazz and dawg travel up there, too. Do you care about the tone up the E string?

[pops1]

Most definitely, I will use the E string to the 12th fret and occasionally, very occasionally the 15th. Actually was there tonight.

[pheffernan]

Sure. I rarely drive above 4500 rpm, but I prefer a car with power up there when called upon to do so.

[colorado_al]

Yes I do. 1st, being blessed/cursed with perfect pitch, good intonation is important to me all over the instrument. 2nd, plenty of good notes up above the 12th fret. Sometimes I even play harmonics that only my dog can hear.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Being able to play in all the positions on the fingerboard is very important if you don't want to sound stagnant. Playing in in the first position all the time will sound 'samey' & ultimately boring,& to become really good players,we owe it to ourselves to 'explore' the tones we get at the higher positions,& it's actually fun !!.
Ivan

[Bob Clark]

That is actually one of the things I really like about my Phoenix Neoclassical; it plays well all the way up the neck. Lots of fun to be had up in the stratosphere.

[UsuallyPickin]

Good tone up above the 12th fret is one of the advantages of a well made instrument. Neck angle , fret location and leveling, tonal qualities of the wood, and of course luthiery make a difference. That is where I first hear if my bridge position has shifted slightly. Pinky dancing ....... R/

[fscotte]

Not really. Musically its not that pleasing to my ears, mando is already high timbre, then when you go high, its toy like. Performance wise its a killer to play there and for people to see. I try to stick below the 7th fret where the music lives.

[CES]

I don't venture up there too often in our praise band setting, but do at home practicing on occasion. Tone up the neck is one of the factors that sets my MT apart from my Eastman and, I think, my beloved Silverangel. Whenever I'm trying out new mandos, I always venture up the board. If it's not strong up there, it's not coming home with me.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Sure. I rarely drive above 4500 rpm, but I prefer a car with power up there when called upon to do so.

Wow. I don't drive above 2,500 rpm. Maybe I don't need E strings at all!

[JeffD]

The more I have played, the more I have explored up there in the nose bleed seats.

With the right mandolin you can love the tone up there.

Two real issues are:

one, it just opens up more real estate in which to improvise and move around. Take the tune up an octave, work out a high harmony, some high lonesome double stops, it just gives you more options

two, playing across the neck up in the high frets is a real hoot. A lot can be done reaching for notes on the string below, as opposed to moving back to the first five frets. When you can pull it off its a really cool feeling.

I dunno, it is among the sounds a mandolin can make, I don't want to miss out.

[pheffernan]

Wow. I don't drive above 2,500 rpm. Maybe I don't need E strings at all!

Just don't lose your g-strings, Charlie.

[foldedpath]

Being able to play in all the positions on the fingerboard is very important if you don't want to sound stagnant. Playing in in the first position all the time will sound 'samey' & ultimately boring,

Oh, now you've done it.

I agree if we're talking about some music genres, but "samey and boring" would be news to anyone specializing in Irish or Scottish traditional music! Harumph!!

In general, you just never leave first position in those genres of music, because that's where the common key centers are (no flat keys in trad), it's where the drones are, and the open strings free up the fingers for ornaments. Try playing rolls, cuts, and crans in closed position further up the neck on a fiddle, and you'll know what I mean. Mandolin players put their fingers in the same place that fiddlers do, when playing trad. And that's first position.

To be fair, there are a few times when I go up past the B note on the E strings, but it's mainly for O'Carolan tunes. He was a harp player (and influenced by Italian Baroque music at that), so the music has a more extended range than the "folk" music created on pipes and fiddles. That's about it though. You can tell by the fret wear on my mandolin that I'm in first position 99% of the time.

We don't all want to play Bluegrass or Jazz. Harumph!! (I didn't get a harumph out of that guy over there!)

P.S. the tone of a mandolin up on the E string around the 7th to 12th frets is important to me, mainly because it's a good indication of the overall worth of a mandolin. Cheaply-made instruments often have a weak E string note at the 5th fret and higher, and it reflects an overall weakness in tone and sustain.

[JeffD]

foldedpath here is the important question: (and forgive me if I come across as a jerk)

If playing above the seventh fret were as easy as playing anywhere else, would you still hold to the 99%?

I mean, I can see holding to certain genres because that is ones passion, and I can see that certain genres do not require going out of first position all that much, but ... if you had third position and higher under your fingers, would you not use it more often? You may not all of a sudden find jazz and classical attractive, but certainly being comfortable up the neck has advantages even in folky traditions.

Which comes first the chicken or the egg? Do we stay in first position because we are not good up the neck, or are we not good up the neck because we stay in first position? Or, being a jerk, have I assumed too much and really you stay in first as a bonafide preference, despite being good up the neck.

[RodCH]

I find that melodies that I arrange myself tend to go up to the 10th or 12th fret, especially on E, A, and D strings, but the relatively simple tunes that I learn from various mandolin tab sites typically only go up to the 7th, and then only on the E string. Often, it is even hard to find one of these that uses the G string in any capacity. I'm not sure why this is.

The result is that I can sight read tabs in the first position, but above that I have to be looking at the fretboard if I want to hit what I am aiming at, and this, for the moment, encourages me down toward first position.

However, I recognize that this is because of my lack of skill and experience. As time goes on, I am hoping these impediments will become less of a problem.

[fscotte]

I think we are missing the important factor - music in general doesn't like the upper range, nor the lower range (but mandos don't have a lower register anyway). The vast majority of music resides in the middle, not because its easier, but because it's more pleasing to our ears. Take piano for instance, it's not harder playing in the higher register than it is in the lower register - but piano likes the midrange for most music.

The mando is tuned right there where it needs to be below the 7th fret from G to E. That's where it sounds best tonally, and that's where the frequency of music is most pleasing.

[pops1]

As for closed positions up the neck I still play double stops just like on open string playing lower. Once you learn to play up the neck it opens up a lot of possibilities including the same double stops used below.

[foldedpath]

foldedpath here is the important question: (and forgive me if I come across as a jerk)

If playing above the seventh fret were as easy as playing anywhere else, would you still hold to the 99%?

I mean, I can see holding to certain genres because that is ones passion, and I can see that certain genres do not require going out of first position all that much, but ... if you had third position and higher under your fingers, would you not use it more often?

No I wouldn't, because it would shift me out of the common keys played by others in this music, and there is no use for improvised solos up the neck. The ornaments that define the music don't get easier to play in closed positions either. In fact, it's much harder. Try faking a fiddle roll with hammer-ons and pull-offs in closed position, vs. using open strings.

My basic premise is that if the trad fiddlers don't move up the neck, then we shouldn't have to either. We're basically following their lead in transferring a much older style to a modern instrument tuned in GDAE (and stealing the pipe ornaments). Watch a Kevin Burke solo concert. Except for maybe a party piece here and there, when he plays straight trad, his fingers never leave first position.

You may not all of a sudden find jazz and classical attractive, but certainly being comfortable up the neck has advantages even in folky traditions.

Nope, I'm not seeing any advantages to it. Not for the dance tune repertoire of Irish or Scottish traditional music. Once again, if had any advantages at all, you'd see the fiddlers doing it. The ONE area where working up the neck would be useful, is if we're talking about Folk/Rock or Folk/Jazz crossover styles. That's not what you'll find at a local trad session though. I listen to that stuff now and then, but I'm not interested in playing it.

Which comes first the chicken or the egg? Do we stay in first position because we are not good up the neck, or are we not good up the neck because we stay in first position? Or, being a jerk, have I assumed too much and really you stay in first as a bonafide preference, despite being good up the neck.

Well, for the record... I spent years playing electric lead guitar in a Blues band. I know my Pentatonic scales and extensions. I could easily adapt that to mandolin, and in fact I did some of that for a brief period when playing in a trio that did some classic Motown and old Rock tunes. I wouldn't go as far as saying I was really good playing up the mandolin neck in that band. But I could hold my own on a local, cheesy bar band level. You should have heard us doing "Love Potion No. 9," or "Proud Mary."


The one thing I can't do, is improvise lines out of moving chords in full-blown Jazz style, instead of working out of Blues/Rock Pentatonic patterns. I never took the time to learn that in my guitar-playing days. The desire gradually drifted away after I got into playing trad, where the challenge is no less intense in "trying to do it right."

[Beanzy]

Going back to original question, for those who play in situations where you may have difficulty being heard, or if the playing needs a lift, going up the neck can be a great way of moving into a different acoustic space. If you're there with all the chord-bashers and choppers going at it like hells demons turning the your acoustic space to a mush, just slipping up an octave or two can bring you out in the fresh air again, without having to smack the BJs out of the mandolin. You just sit there twinkling awaylike an acoustic star. Having a mandolin that can give you a good ringing upper register with a decent sustain helps to stop it just sounding weedy, it actually can become quite strong and assertive if you want it to. This is one place where the KM150 fails. But it's not a general mandolin thing as my Davidson really shines out.

As Foldedpath says it's different in Irish trad, where it's about fitting into the overall canvas of the tune rather than trying to stand out and especially on mandolin playing to your strengths (which is often about making the fiddles sound better than they really at at the start of every note)

[Explorer]

I agree if we're talking about some music genres, but "samey and boring" would be news to anyone specializing in Irish or Scottish traditional music! Harumph!!

In general, you just never leave first position in those genres of music, because that's where the common key centers are (no flat keys in trad), it's where the drones are, and the open strings free up the fingers for ornaments. Try playing rolls, cuts, and crans in closed position further up the neck on a fiddle, and you'll know what I mean. Mandolin players put their fingers in the same place that fiddlers do, when playing trad. And that's first position.

Just to note, there are plenty of pieces in Scottish and Irish traditional music which are untilize other positions than first position. Hornpipes often go higher on fiddle. Some Scottish music is played on fiddle in *fifth* position. Playing a tune like Seán Sa Chéo as intended requires a higher position.

If mandolin players in Donegal, where higher positions on fiddle are common, are following the fiddle players, then the mandolin players are not sticking to first position.

I'm going to note that a lot of American seisiúns stay in first position. I've always thought it was because most such seisiúns had a majority of extracultural revivalists who weren't familiar with the broader traditions, and therefore developed their own narrower styles and ideas. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is definitely a mistake to claim that the originating traditions don't shift above the open first position.

[Explorer]

High C and higher. Quite a few rags have whole sections up there. Jazz and dawg travel up there, too. Do you care about the tone up the E string?

In answer to the actual original question, yes, I care about the tone *and* the playability up the neck. Things like bossa nova and chord melody playing require a mandolin which works well across the entire range of the instrument.

[pops1]

There are many tunes in the old time vein that I play in where in a jam with lots of people I will play the exact melody in two or three different places up the neck. It comes out and adds a nice touch to the sound. I don't improvise in an old time jam, but playing an octave up sounds good and you can do it in several places on the neck. Hangman's Reel is one where I will play the entire tune in 3 or 4 different places on the neck. It is easy enough to play what I play open, challenges me a little more and is an nice addition to the 5 or 6 fiddles all playing the same thing an octave lower.

[jshane]

I guess I don't get it.
This style says you can't do that.
That style never does this.
I mean, put it down, back away, and look at the damn thing. It has 4 string courses. They are tuned in 5ths. There are frets going up the neck. Gazillions of possibilities and combinations. Why wouldn't you use every bit of that God-given cornucopia of sound?

[foldedpath]

I guess I don't get it.
This style says you can't do that.
That style never does this.
I mean, put it down, back away, and look at the damn thing. It has 4 string courses. They are tuned in 5ths. There are frets going up the neck. Gazillions of possibilities and combinations. Why wouldn't you use every bit of that God-given cornucopia of sound?

Maybe because there is another "God-given cornucopia of sound" that can only be played in first position.

Do you ever play Irish trad with ornaments and double-stops on open strings? That's my personal cornucopia of sound.

[foldedpath]

Just to note, there are plenty of pieces in Scottish and Irish traditional music which are untilize other positions than first position.

Can you play ornaments out of first position? And I mean something more than a treble. Serious question.