Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Vintage Gibson A model

  1. #1

    Question Vintage Gibson A model

    Hey everyone, first time here so please let me know if I do something wrong and I'll fix it.

    I recently found this in a shop in Ochanomizu, Tokyo. I admit that I'm not the most knowledgeable about mandolins, but I was looking for one and it happened to be in my budget. I know that old Gibsons are supposed to have a pretty decent sound, so I asked to play it and loved the tone. I figured I'd post it here and see what you guys could tell me about it, and if you noticed anything that requires fixing or restoration.

    It's pretty hard to play, and I noticed the frets look a little worn and very low compared to what I'm used to (a shameful old bottom-of-the-barrel Harmony). I've heard that the older mandolins can take a little more pressure, but I feel it's substantially more than it should be, and I get bruising after only 10-15 minutes of play. Do you think it needs refretting? I figured it might be possible that in its lifetime (the shop estimated 1919, which seems about right with the research I've done, but again I'm not the most knowledgeable) the frets have been dressed and are even smaller than the original small frets. Or is this more of a "suck it up" kind of thing? Would lighter strings help at all?

    Second, I've noticed a lot of hairline cracks that seem to run through the finish/lacquer, though only one on the back looks like it went into the wood. Again I could be wrong, so I tried to capture them as best I could to see if anyone sees something that should be repaired.

    Basically... what have I got here? Sorry for the dumb question. It does sound great (at least to me) when I can bear to play it, but do you think I got suckered into a beater that will take more work than it's worth? Additionally, does anyone know a good luthier around Tokyo that you'd trust with a vintage Gibson? I'm trying to find some online but it's slow going, hoping someone has experience with a shop to recommend.

    See photos:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20170705_182411.jpg 
Views:	445 
Size:	416.3 KB 
ID:	158798Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20170705_182509.jpg 
Views:	325 
Size:	239.5 KB 
ID:	158806Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20170705_182505.jpg 
Views:	306 
Size:	374.8 KB 
ID:	158805Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20170705_182454.jpg 
Views:	338 
Size:	436.7 KB 
ID:	158804Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20170705_182449.jpg 
Views:	314 
Size:	311.7 KB 
ID:	158803Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20170705_182436.jpg 
Views:	322 
Size:	297.3 KB 
ID:	158802Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20170705_182422.jpg 
Views:	285 
Size:	415.7 KB 
ID:	158801Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20170705_182418.jpg 
Views:	437 
Size:	445.3 KB 
ID:	158800Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20170705_182543.jpg 
Views:	325 
Size:	385.1 KB 
ID:	158808Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20170705_182520.jpg 
Views:	360 
Size:	519.5 KB 
ID:	158807

  2. #2

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    Here's the 11th pic that shows the one crack in the back.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20170705_182530.jpg 
Views:	268 
Size:	370.3 KB 
ID:	158809

  3. #3

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    Hello Mandowinner,
    Now I (as they say) am no Gibson expert, but that finish looks seriously glossy to me for a 1919 instrument. Is it possible that it has been refinished and that the cracks that you see are the result of the original finish and whatever may be over the top of it not bonding to each other properly?

    Other than that the peg head doesn't look quite paddle shaped enough to me, of course that could be because of the camera angle.

    Assuming that it is a Gibson, I think the lack of binding on the back and the lack of a logo on the peg head would suggest an A (or possibly A1) model (although the A1 does seem to have a logo in the ones I have seen in the archives)

    I'm sure more knowledgeable persons will be along presently
    Rob

    My YouTube Channel
    My Book - The Solstice Blade - featuring zero mandolin content!

  4. The following members say thank you to Rob Beck for this post:


  5. #4

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    Thanks Rob,

    I know it's been worked on at least once, the case (an old Gibson case that I assume was the original) came with the original bridge and the pickguard apparatus that clamps onto the side. I don't know if it was refinished at that time, I didn't ask because the workers at the shop didn't speak much English, and I spoke even less Japanese. You're right that it's a lot glossier than what models from that period look like online, I should have noticed that earlier.

    I did think about it possibly being fake, but the most interesting evidence against that was actually the label. I can take a picture of that to show you if I don't do a good job of describing it. Basically, there's a huge glob of excess glue that runs across the top of the label and off to the side almost to the sidewall of the instrument, and the glue has been printed over. It would be pretty difficult and pointless for someone to replicate an old Gibson label on the inside with that kind of printing error, and it would make it impossible to transplant from another instrument intact. I could be wrong, especially about the date, but I feel pretty sure that it's an authentic Gibson of some description. It would definitely be a plain old Model A if it does end up being that time period, it's about as barebones as they come. The paddle head is at an awkward angle in the photo, I was trying to catch the light to show the cracks in the finish up there. It does look identical to the pictures I see of old Gibson paddleheads online.

  6. #5
    Registered User Ausdoerrt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Kyiv, Ukraine
    Posts
    333

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    If you like the sound, then play it, I'd say - doesn't matter if it's authentic or not. It does look like a cool mando

    Maybe it needs a refret - hard to tell from the photos. If the frets are uneven - then you definitely need a fretjob. If the frets are simply lower/thinner than you're used to, but it's still playable (no buzz, all notes sound and intonate fine), then maybe it's something you can get used to.

    I've never played a Gibby, but I know it took me some time to get used to my L&H with its tiny frets compared to a modern mandolin.
    Mandolins: The Loar LM-220; Lyon & Healy Special A #103; Epiphone Mandobird VIII
    Violins: 19th century German Steiner copy; NS Design WAV 4; NS Design WAV 5; Reiter Alien II 7-string
    Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ausdoerrt

  7. #6
    Brentrup Evangelist Larry S Sherman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,793
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    I'm also not a Gibson expert, but some things look wrong to me:

    The metal endpin looks like a guitar style screw-in type. I would expect a wooden friction pin. What is it screwed into? Is there a jack there to plug it in? If it's a screw then I suspect there's been some surgery done to the end-block.

    The rosette biding does not look like a Gibson to me. I'm wondering if the rosette had to be redone, or perhaps a new top was installed?

    The back looks like it was removed at some point. Why? It looks like there's black binding on the back and white on the front...doesn't seem correct to me. I would guess that it was off to facilitate repairs (hence the glue you were seeing) and not re-installed correctly leading to the cracks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Beck View Post
    Other than that the peg head doesn't look quite paddle shaped enough to me, of course that could be because of the camera angle.
    Yes, the peghead looks weird to me too, but I'm not sure.

    If it sounds good to you that's the most important thing. If it doesn't play easily have a luthier give it an expert setup.

    Best, Larry

  8. The following members say thank you to Larry S Sherman for this post:


  9. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,507

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    Looks like the bridge saddle is at it's lowest, but wood can be removed to lower it more so it plays better. If you measure from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the G string I like to see 2/32" at the very most, and less on the treble side. If you are above that try lowering the saddle on the bridge, or as Larry says get it setup by some one.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  10. The following members say thank you to pops1 for this post:


  11. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,811

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    Looks to me like it's had a fair amount of work done on it since its natality.

    Refinished, if it is a pre-1921 model, since there's no pickguard clamp goop present on the treble edge. The soundhole rosette looks like something from the 1960-70 era. Crackling on back indicates some wide swings in temp/humidity, causing the wood to shrink/expand. Bridge is a replacement. I suspect the original hole for the endpin was plugged and a screw-in strap hanger was added. The back may have shrunk, which would explain the possibility of having been removed and reglued. That might also explain the black binding. (I'm no expert on the dress of these instruments, so for all I know it might have come that way from the factory.)

    As long as it's stable and playable (and I don't know why you find it hard to play; is the action too high?) and produces the sound you like, there's no real problem. Given the modifications, I'd figure the price ought to be about half what you would pay for one in original well-used used condition.

  12. The following members say thank you to Bob A for this post:


  13. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    High Peak - UK
    Posts
    4,171

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    I'd agree that the soundhole rosette does look wrong, as is the end-pin. It's clearly been re-finished in the relatively recent past and the overall colour of the sides and neck look wrong; but this could be due to the way it's been photographed and the device I'm looking at them on. The back may have been removed to fix a loose top brace so I wouldn't worry about that at the moment. We could do with a photograph of the tuners and the removed bits which came with it but my guess would be it's a Gibson fron the late teens.

    If you could post the serial number which you should find on the label and the Factory Order Number which should be stamped inside, somewhere near the head block, this would help date it.

    I doubt whether someone would go to the trouble of faking a basic teens model A. They'd be much more likely to fake something more valuable.

  14. The following members say thank you to Ray(T) for this post:


  15. #10

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    Thanks for the great info everyone. I'll post the requested pictures in a little while, I'm in a bit of a rush this morning. The FON is 11306, which according to Gibson's list puts it at 1919-1920, so I'm guessing that's where the shop got their estimate as well. The serial is very difficult for me to read, very light pencil. I can make out some of the numbers, but it looks like the first one is a symbol of some sort? That or it's just faded enough that I can't make it out. It doesn't look like a letter or a number. I'll post pictures of that too and see if you guys can decipher it better than I can.

    About the "black binding" on the back, that's a fault of the pictures. There is no binding on the back, it's wood all the way to the edge. I'll try and get better photos of that too, hopefully in better lighting than the fluorescent lights I had in the first picture. The rosette around the oval definitely was replaced, I couldn't find the model that had that particular rosette but it certainly looks much more modern and you can see it wasn't the cleanest job. I'll get closeups of that too. It seems like I've got a bit of a Frankenstein Gibson on my hands, which doesn't really bother me. I probably overpaid, but what's new for Tokyo?

    So, to-do list for pictures:

    Peghead

    Tuners

    Better back shots

    Rosette

    Label

    Original stuff from the case

    As for the advice to have a luthier set it up, I'd love to. I'll keep searching for one in the Tokyo area (or Kyoto, since I can get there on the bullet train), as I'd prefer not to ship it anywhere unless I really have to. I think it probably needs a refret, it's especially difficult to get notes on the first 5-6 frets on the e-string to sound clearly, and they look pretty worn on that side. Any thoughts on ultra-light strings? I know they've got their tradeoffs, but do you think they'd help me transition over to the smaller style frets, or not really?

  16. #11
    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,379

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    Those strings look pretty high off the fretboard -- lowering the bridge (if possible) might help. if you have the original bridge (?) you might want to try swapping it out. One thing about the serial number -- mine was too light to see straight on, but when I held it so the light would sort of catch it from the side, I could see the indentions made by the pencil. that's about the only way you can read the number in my snake. just a thought.
    --------------------------------
    1920 Lyon & Healy bowlback
    1923 Gibson A-1 snakehead
    1952 Strad-o-lin
    1983 Giannini ABSM1 bandolim
    2009 Giannini GBSM3 bandolim
    2011 Eastman MD305

  17. #12
    Registered User Ausdoerrt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Kyiv, Ukraine
    Posts
    333

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    If the frets look work (uneven), then you most likely need a fret-dressing job or even a refret.

    Also, IIRC, vintage Gibsons used a non-adjustable brigde (w/o the screws), which are generally lower than the one you have installed.
    Mandolins: The Loar LM-220; Lyon & Healy Special A #103; Epiphone Mandobird VIII
    Violins: 19th century German Steiner copy; NS Design WAV 4; NS Design WAV 5; Reiter Alien II 7-string
    Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ausdoerrt

  18. #13

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    I'd say it's a Gibson A or A2 from around 1920 which has had a refurbishment in the 70's or thereabouts. A lot of guitars from that period had that lacquer which is very shiny and cracks in a similar way. Some kind of polyurethane maybe. The rosette has been added so maybe it was an A Junior which I believe had an unbound soundhole. The frets from this age are very small and a bit of a challenge to play with modern strings. I would lower the action, put on light strings and see how it feels and sounds. If it's hard to play, get it refretted with bigger frets. I use D'addario 10 to 34 strings on my old Gibson A and it sounds great.

  19. #14

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    Yes... Straight 'A'-model Gibson, circa 1920 that has had a lot of work (refinish, repairs, added adjustable bridge, side fret markers etc) done to it. Bridge saddle appears to be on backward.

  20. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    High Peak - UK
    Posts
    4,171

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    According to Spann's Guide, that FON would suggest early 1920 (or possibly late 1919). Knowing the serial number will certainly help. Try looking at it with a strong light from different angles - I have a snakehead on which you can't read the number until you get the light right.

  21. #16
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Rochester NY 14610
    Posts
    17,378

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    The Gibson A never had a headstock logo, and the back was unbound. The A went from a "pumpkin" finish to a brown finish in 1918, apparently, which agrees with the estimated date of this one. It would have had an elevated pickguard, which has been lost along the way, and a non-adjustable bridge, which has been replaced by the adjustable one.

    The soundhole rosette's another story. Looking at images of Gibson A's, I find quite a few variations: a single ring of herringbone purfling, two concentric rings, perhaps others. I've not seen one that looks like this one's, but Gibson is noted for exceptions to their normal designs, so it could be a factory install -- perhaps grabbing a top from another mandolin to finish building a particular instrument. Or not.

    Clearly the mandolin's been refinished, quite possibly oversprayed with a poly finish, which has "crazed" through imperfect attachment to the original finish. The less "paddle" headstock profile was also a late-'teens change in the A; Gibson went to the snakehead profile in the early '20's, after this one was made.

    As to frets, if it's gone 95 or so years without fret replacement, may be time to consider that. As to the action, it does appear from the sideways shot that there's little arch left to the top. Again, not unusual for an instrument of this age; tops often lose some of their arch, though you should check to make sure the transverse brace below the soundhole is intact and attached. The fact that the action is still too high for you, while the neck-set angle appears to be pretty normal, means you need a lower bridge, I guess. From your pics, the action seems to be within the normal range, but you're the one playing it. Lighter strings would probably help, though they would somewhat lessen the acoustic projection of the instrument.

    Wonder how this one ended up in Tokyo? As to "fixing and restoration," I'd investigate a lower bridge saddle, and perhaps a re-fret, though how to get one in Tokyo, I don't know. Good luck with it.

    Later: that rosette looks like one in this current thread about a paddle-head A-2Z, another mandolin that Gibson supposedly didn't make. You get all kinds of variants, especially in the large-volume heyday of Gibson mandolin production.
    Allen Hopkins
    Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
    Natl Triolian Dobro mando
    Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
    H-O mandolinetto
    Stradolin Vega banjolin
    Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
    Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
    Flatiron 3K OM

  22. #17
    Capt. E Capt. E's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    2,874

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    Yes, an expert setup will be needed. I agree the rosette doesn't look right...probably a result of the re-finish, probably a lacquer that has started cracking. I like the grain in the wood on the back. Definitely a player's instrument. I wouldn't worry about doing whatever it needs that falls into your budget, even a re-fret. You can find near original, very playable Gibson A's or A-1's from under $1000 to $1500, so keep that in mind. My 1919 A-2 is my main instrument these days, I will NEVER sell it.
    Jammin' south of the river
    '20 Gibson A-2
    Stromberg-Voisinet Tenor Guitar
    Penny Whistle
    My albums: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/album.php?u=7616

  23. #18
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Outer Spiral Arm, of Galaxy, NW Oregon.
    Posts
    17,103

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    My basic A did not even have side dots, and the brown varnish was far from shiny,
    rosette ring a single thin band.
    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

  24. #19

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    Adorable!

  25. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    1,616

    Default Re: Vintage Gibson A model

    Yes, the action is way too high over the lower frets. Much too high even by the 2nd-3rd frets. My guess is that this neck/FB has a forward bow. It's not uncommon on any old Gibson, or any old mandolin for that matter. Look carefully at photo #2; this FB has been worked on and given a radius. I think it could stand to be pretty aggressively leveled between the 5th fret and the nut.

    I've had this kind of work - leveling to remove bowing, and refretting - on 4-5 of my own vintage Gibsons. All I'm saying is that this symptom is pretty common, and so is the cure, though it is a $200-$300 investment. It really is a lovely mandolin - and I think you'd be in a good position to confidently make a low-ish offer, based on the refinished condition and work needed.
    Jeff Rohrbough
    "Listen louder, play softer"

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •