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Thread: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

  1. #76

    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    ... If I try to play louder I don't have very good control and the pick gets all tangled up and I can't do much of anything, so my hope of posting here was that there would be some help for me that isn't just "play harder" because that isn't working. ...
    Ah. There's a valuable clue there. You said the "pick gets all tangled up". So I'm wondering about something.

    I saw your Strumstick Mandola video (cool instrument, by the way) where you're using almost entirely downstrokes only.

    So I went back and looked at the mandolin video again, I can't quite tell what notes you're playing, but I slowed the video down to half-speed and it does in fact look like you're probably using mostly only downstrokes there too.

    Now. Generally speaking, *if* you're using only downstrokes on mandolin, that makes the hand move twice as far to get the same number of notes...

    So it wouldn't be surprising to get the pick tangled up when trying to "play harder" because you're already working harder than necessary.

    Especially when playing fiddle tunes where there are 'more' notes to start with, so efficiency of picking-hand motion is important.

    So, a solution to that pick-tangling, is to play alternate pick strokes, up-down-up-down-up-down (approximately, vary as needed) throughout the tune. That way the hand does half as much work for the same amount of notes (sort of). It's easier once you get used to it.

    Please don't shoot me. I'm not trying to criticize, rather just an observation that there might be an easier way to play that makes it easier for you to pick all the notes. I hate seeing people struggle with something when there's an easier way. I'd definitely recommend finding a teacher of some sort who can see up-close what you're doing, that way they'll have a more accurate idea of what the situation is and what to suggest.

    ---
    (I know you didn't ask about pick direction, you asked about volume, but when you mentioned the pick getting tangled up when you tried to play harder, I thought there might be some correlation.)

  2. #77
    Registered User Mike Snyder's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Beware of the amplification thing. It tends to escalate.
    Mike Snyder

  3. #78

    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Quote Originally Posted by JL277z View Post
    ... alternate pick strokes, up-down-up-down-up-down ...
    Oops, I should have started that pick sequence on a down-pick, not an up. (Usually.) Anyway...

  4. #79
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    it's playing music. It's not playing notes.

    I also (mostly) play old-time music. I have a heavy hand (and am working on my own technique issues, by the way). I agree, there may be some benefit to using both up and down strokes. I also think you may be a bit apprehensive on playing wrong notes. Come on! Have fun, get reckless, be loud!

    Enjoy the journey though!

    f-d
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  6. #80
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    That observation about unidirectional picking adds an interesting angle. The yellow brick road to volume and relaxation may be longer than anyone guessed so far, but there is definitely a pot of gold waiting at the end (I may have my imagery mixed up a bit).

    I am normally playing Irish, not Old Time, but here is a demonstration on picking an Old Time tune written by a Scot. Bidirectional picking and whole hand moving, that is the ticket.
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  8. #81

    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Cowboy waltz is a lot of down strokes. Here is the sheet music.

    http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/se...wboy_waltz.htm

    I Once Loved a Sailor is similar. It's also a waltz.

    I don't know how to do tremolo with any confidence (and find it sorta annoying to listen to anyway). If I did, some of the longer notes would have them.

    When I play reels or polkas or other similar tunes, there are more up stroke notes. I looked at mandolessons.com and I play tunes the same way he plays them as far as up and down strokes.

    One weird tune I play is called Peanut Shoes and it's kinda waltz-like in that the notes are long (my friend thought it was a waltz because of this), but it's all up-down-up-down. I think the time signature might be something like 2/4. The third tune of this video. I'm not in the video.

    Last edited by sbhikes; Jul-14-2017 at 7:33pm.

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  10. #82

    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    So my friend gave me a lesson and said there's nothing really wrong with how I play, pretty much the only thing is that I dig into the strings too much which makes it harder to play fast. I do that because I'm trying to be louder. So he said to try to play more lightly on the strings. He also said I use my wrist not my fingers, which is good, that I make good use of double-stops and stuff like that.

    He had a million different picks to try out. He, like another mandolin playing friend of mine, plays with the lightest pick possible most of the time (and a medium weight pick the rest of the time). That's now two real life people I know who are professional mandolin players who use super light picks.

  11. #83
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    That's now two real life people I know who are professional mandolin players who use super light picks.
    I am not Thick-Pick Dick either. I have tried thick picks after reading about them here on the Cafe, but they do nothing to increase volume - they just produce that dry woody sound that so many BG players seem to like, and they cut away those high frequencies that could make you heard above a guitar.

    I use two picks that are 0.73 and 0.62, giving me either punch for fast tunes or that harpsichord brilliance for slower pieces.

    Not digging in is correct advice. You get louder not with more depth but with the pick moving faster across the strings.

    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

  12. #84
    Registered User Mike Snyder's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Gotta disagree in the kindest way because of the great respect I have for Bertram. So many picking styles, instrument voices, genres of music. I use brutishly thick Blue Chip picks, not so much for the volume they produce for me, but for a big round tone and the wide range of response possible with them. It would be arrogant for me to claim that is "THE WAY" and I dislike arrogance, especially when I hear it coming from me. Thick works for me on the F5 and the A4.
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  13. #85
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Snyder View Post
    ...not so much for the volume they produce for me, but for a big round tone...
    Thanks for the kind intro...
    This is a matter of personal taste, that's why I have avoided mentioning it as long as I could. A round tone is exactly what I am trying to avoid, because it lacks the frequency extremes that I like and that make my instrument stand out from the crowd, acoustically.
    Besides, I am playing an OM, the longer scale with slightly floppier feel in the strings (compared to a mandolin's) calling for different picks anyway.

    I am glad, though, that we seem to agree that thickness is not about volume.
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  14. #86
    Registered User Mike Snyder's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    The volume is in the instrument, for the most part. I think. No, I'm sure. Finally I have two that can be authoritative and up front or drift in and out sweetly and still not get lost in the mix. Hoping that the OP can find some clarity amidst all the divergence.
    Mike Snyder

  15. #87
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    I'm with you Mike. I humbly can't imagine trying to pull volume out of any stringed instrument with a thin flexible pick especially an F hole instrument. But as always YMMV.
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  16. #88
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    We'd have to meet for a demonstration, since recordings provide no proof. Until then, you'll have to take my word that I can do it.

    P.S. or maybe one short story - in this very crowded session last month, a girl was sitting on my right, she was playing box and banjo. After one hour she asked me could we change places? because she felt a tinnitus coming on from the direct boom of my OM. Not astonished at all, I agreed immediately.
    Last edited by Bertram Henze; Jul-16-2017 at 8:35am.
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    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Quote Originally Posted by hank View Post
    I'm with you Mike. I humbly can't imagine trying to pull volume out of any stringed instrument with a thin flexible pick especially an F hole instrument. But as always YMMV.
    Thin doesn't always mean flexible,,I use a pick boy sharp carbon .75...very stiff,,it brings out the most brilliance for me on all strings everywhere on the board.....

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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    I have found old Gibson A models do well with about any pick. I have played against several fiddles and used a light pick and could be heard fine. I do like a heavier pick on an ff holed mandolin, but for me nothing past 1mm or it is too dead on the G string. Heavier pick changes tone, but I can get volume with either.
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  20. #91
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.Nydn View Post
    Thin doesn't always mean flexible,,I use a pick boy sharp carbon .75...very stiff,,it brings out the most brilliance for me on all strings everywhere on the board.....
    Forgot to mention that. .73 Clayton Ultem triangle here. They are kind of flexible when bent with two hands, but not moving much while picking. Also, I use most of the triangle for gripping, only a tiny tip is sticking out.
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  22. #92

    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    I don't actually use a light pick myself. My friend I visited said, after having used a very heavy rounded Golden Gate pick for a very long time, our other friend convinced him to try the light pick. He said he will use a medium guitar pick for shows but the light pick when playing at home or with friends. He demonstrated to me and both were equally loud but the guitar pick was more full and the thin pick was slightly thinner sounding, but both were equally loud.

    I did get some good picks in the mail yesterday after my visit. I haven't decided which one I like the best but they are nice to use. They're sort of "knock-offs" of the Blue-chip picks made by Dunlop, one rounded and one more pointed. I kind of like the pointed one because it's large and easy to hold. I also have some really thin picks that came with my strumstick that are sort of stiff compared to other thin picks. I haven't really used one on the mandolin. I should try it.
    Last edited by sbhikes; Jul-16-2017 at 3:30pm.

  23. #93

    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    So my friend gave me a lesson and said there's nothing really wrong with how I play, pretty much the only thing is that I dig into the strings too much which makes it harder to play fast. I do that because I'm trying to be louder. So he said to try to play more lightly on the strings. He also said I use my wrist not my fingers, which is good, that I make good use of double-stops and stuff like that.

    He had a million different picks to try out. He, like another mandolin playing friend of mine, plays with the lightest pick possible most of the time (and a medium weight pick the rest of the time). That's now two real life people I know who are professional mandolin players who use super light picks.
    Not many pros use thin picks. Sam Bush uses the thinnest I know of (.96mm), and if you watch his right hand, he's definitely not taking it easy.

    Your friend is right, in that digging in really hard does make it harder to play fast, but playing lighter is never going to get volume out of an un-amplified instrument. Even when it's just my dad playing guitar and me playing mandolin, I hit pretty hard to keep up volume wise. Using heavier strings definitely helps.
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  24. #94
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    There is one factor I have forgotten: attack angle. When I really need volume, I turn the pick parallel with the strings and hit them with the full broadside. But that is harder on the hand, you got to really hold fast on to the pick while doing that.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    When I want more volume I let the pick go a tad deeper into the strings. Just enough to be louder. Same grip, I let it adjust to the increased pick tug. Like a poster before - you want to push that string a tad more before it jumps clear of the edge.

    Working your way up bit by bit in pick thickness might allow you to play as loud with less of the pick point below the strings

    5 minutes a day picking up/down on an open A or D string should inform you how to play louder. Good to study the right hand w/o left hand using up processor time

  26. #96

    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Going a tad deeper was my problem. It doesn't really help me (if the complaints that I'm too quiet are any indication) and it makes my playing slower and clunkier. I think the angle of attack is a better way to go. One of the picks that came in the mail just after my lesson is showing me how much pick angle (combined with NOT digging in) makes a difference.

  27. #97
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Yay!!!

    I was going to say the Blue Chips are too rounded for me. The problem is not that they are heavy, but that their shape doesn't work for me.

    Glad you are getting it all figured out.
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    ....They're sort of "knock-offs" of the Blue-chip picks made by Dunlop, one rounded and one more pointed. I kind of like the pointed one because it's large and easy to hold....
    If you're talking about Dunlop Primetones, I think they're fantastic.
    When I got back into mando a few years ago, I took the long-road pick journey (I actually flatpick more guitar than mando), refusing to buy into the $30+/pick category. Starting w/normal celluloid guitar picks(heavy ~1.0mm), then the rounded edge of said picks; rounded triangles - Dawg, Golden Gate, Wegen(my fave for a while). Finally decided I liked the large triangle picks better - Ultem, Ultex, Wegen(great), Primetone (best). Finally broke down and got 3 styles and thicknesses of Blue Chip; ended up liking the 1.6mm triangle the most (for mando & dreadnought). But I like the Primetones & Wegens (1.4-1.5) about 97.5% as much and use them most of the time. Also like the Pro Plec 1.5 triangles when I want fat tone but less volume (..late at night). Pickaholics Anonymous

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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder


  30. #100
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Philgox, for someone claiming to not be able to give specific advice, you gave some pretty darn good advice, my friend!

    I've never been able to pull volume out of Dawg or Golden Gate shaped picks, including the really rounded Primetones. Some pickers swear by them, but I've never been able to bond. I like a rounded triangle shape with a little bit of a point the best, followed by teardrop shaped picks. The Primetones are good picks, though I feel like they impart a darker tone than my Wegens (and are slightly brighter than my BC).

    Good luck! When I first started trying to convert from my pinky brushing style to more of a "power grip" approach, it was very frustrating at first, as Bertram suggests. I basically had to relearn tunes, felt like I lost some dexterity/speed and control, etc. But, the work and patience eventually paid off, and I can now play faster with a relaxed loose grip than I could with my old technique. Not commenting on your technique, just on the fact that changes like this take time, especially when you've developed your level of prowess already.

    Edit: And, by "time," I mean a few weeks to a few months most likely, though many people are far more talented and adaptable than me. It's been years ago, but I seem to recall feeling like I was making progress after a couple of weeks, but it took 6-8 weeks to get comfortable with the new grip and to be able to use it without thinking about it.
    Chuck

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