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Thread: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

  1. #1

    Default I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    My pick is 1.14mm so it's pretty hard.

    I play once a week with a lot of old people, many of whom have hearing aids. The jam has many fiddles, a very loud hammer dulcimer, many banjos, and about three guitars on some days, among other instruments.

    I also play in a small band with a guy who plays a very loud guitar. I'm not the only person who thinks the guitar is too loud.

    I don't expect to overcome the big jam, but certainly I should be able to play loud enough to be heard in a group with one guitar and one fiddle, right?

    Everyone says that I play too quietly. The guitar player gave me the pick, saying I'm too quiet and maybe it would help. I can hear the plastic click-click on the strings more than I can hear anything else, but he says it helps a little.

    I have a lot of firepower to overcome but even if I start a tune and nobody else is playing, most people say I play too quietly. I can try to wail on it hard, really pluck the strings as hard as I can, but too much of that and I lose what little control I have over the melody (I'm a melody player, not a chord player.) A happy medium seems to help, but people still complain it's too quiet.

    In short, it's not entirely my fault, but it's still partially my fault.

    So what the hell do I do? I bought the loudest mandolin in the store. I have a hard pick. I play as loud as I can and have a lot of practice trying to play over a god-forsaken 12-string monster and a 1956 Gibson guitar that is wailed on like a wannabe rock star and a jam filled with a heavenly host of fiddles, a devilish cadre of guitars and one Satan's spawn hammer dulcimer, but I still cannot play loud enough to please anyone even when playing solo. How do I play louder?

  2. #2
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Practice playing rest strokes, down and up. Start slowly. You'll be surprised at both the tone and volume. Little hard to do crossing strings, but it comes with repetition.

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    Gibson F5L Gibson A5L
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Heavier strings , a toneguard and a 1.4 mm pick or thicker...... after that it's a question of technique. R/
    I love hanging out with mandolin nerds . . . . . Thanks peeps ...

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    You're playing with the wrong people.

    Sorry, but I've been there, done that. If you're in a group where everyone is bashing on their instrument as loud as they can, and not listening to anyone else (which is the key here), then you need to find different people to jam with. I'm assuming you do have reasonable volume from your mandolin, and from your post it sounds like you do, at least in isolation.

    I play Scottish and Irish music in sessions where there are always several fiddles, up to four or five at a time. At one session there is always one piper and sometimes two. These are the Scottish smallpipes, but they're still pretty loud. I can still start a set of tunes on my mandolin, and nobody has trouble hearing me, at least the "starting a tune" part. It's not because I'm the loudest instrument in the room. It's because the other musicians are listening to everyone else in the session, and not just wailing as loud as they can on their instruments.

    Find better people to play with, if you can. Find people who can listen as well as play together.

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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    I'm sure my technique is terrible. I've never had a lesson. Here is a video. You can't hear me at all and it doesn't look like anybody is showboating.


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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Quote Originally Posted by UsuallyPickin View Post
    it's a question of technique. R/
    Yep. You need to bear down more with your right hand.

  8. #7
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Okay, having seen that video clip I'll agree with the others. It looks like you're not applying enough energy to the pick.

    That said, my earlier comment was about a jam situation. If you're doing a paid performance, then it's important to think about the overall presentation.

    With that group of instruments, it wouldn't hurt to add a pickup or clip-on mic to your mandolin, and bring along a small battery-powered amp to make sure you're playing on an equal footing with the others. In a paid performance, there is no shame in amplifying what needs to be amplified. Acoustic jams and sessions are a different situation.

  9. #8
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Get a resonator!?!
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Registered User DougC's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Judging by your video, this is a technique problem. (I have to play with a clarinet and an accordion as well as two fiddles and they DO listen, your buddies are O.K. I think they want to hear the whole sound).

    But my point is that I had to learn to develop a strong right hand that is highly skilled. By this I mean that I had to relax and move the pick so it brushes the string.

    It seems contrary to logic but just bashing thru the string with a thick pick is not louder than having your fingers loosen enough to let the pick 'flop' over the string. Chris is brief about this aspect and I had to work for weeks on this 'just there to support' role of the thumb or fingers on the up stroke.

    You can't do this when you are tense! Believe me.





    Last edited by DougC; Jul-02-2017 at 9:08pm.

  12. #10

    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Be sure you are practicing loudly. I think it is a normal tendency for people to play more quietly when they practice, unless they make an effort not to.

    After you watch the videos above, experiment with making one loud, clear note using the technique shown. When you get it, that tone is your benchmark. You cannot "play" a tune unless you can play it with that tone. Go back and methodically rebuild all the tunes you know using that tone.

  13. #11
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    An important part of playing loud is how you release the strings from the pick.
    As an exercise to reveal just how loud you can be try this.
    Place the pick on the courses with no angle, just straight on paralell and slowly displace the strings as much as you can without releasing them, Just keep pushing them as far as you can until the force is too much and the string releases suddenly and loudly.
    See just how loud that can be?, how much 'pop' is in the release? Keep doing it until you can't make it any louder by displacing the strings further.people often refer to it as "pushing through the strings".
    Don't ease the string off the pick by sloping it or angling it, let it spring off the tip of the pick in the same way an archer would release their fingertips from a bowstring. (you can work on subtle later). Don't think you need to be polite to your instrument, make the bugger ring out. You don' need to be strong or hit into the strings hard, rather release them with all the energy you put in. You could hammer away at them and gain little extra volume if you don't actually release them cleanly.
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

  14. #12

    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Great suggestions about technique!! For the other times (playing over several fiddles and a banjo (or 2) etc etc (try playing with pipes sometime)-- a pickup and a small battery powered amp isn't a bad solution...

  15. #13
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Well I've run into this and I know every mando picker has had this problem, My Uncle Dick Smith who is a great musician told me never beat or struggle to play loud you sacrifice a lot, tone, technique, ya wear yourself out etc... in a jam with no PA system others should back off so you can be heard, but we all know this hardly happens, I don't get it, but he said why work so hard let your instrument do the work for ya, it helps if you have a quality mandolin but not many people have picker respect! Obviously a banjo will be louder and its hard to get them guys to simmer down! I despise playing with people who feel they got to kick their instruments butt so to speak, it sure aint fun for the mandolinist. If ya can't tell em to simmer down or if you do and they don't listen well find some like minded people! Tone Guards help your mandolin. I like a heavy string set.
    I know when I play and there is a mike/PA I get right in there like I own it and play, I love moniter systems also so you can hear everyone. "also mistakes"

  16. #14
    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    I agree with the above comments. After watching the video, it looks like your right hand is barely moving. There certainly is a balance between bearing down to get good volume and playing so hard that it affects the quality of tone and clean playing. This is something that has to be practiced and it takes time. Equipment plays a bit of a part too. Strings and pick selection contribute to volume. One of the picks I have in my case is a Dunlop Primetone Sculpted 1.4 mm. It's not my favorite pick when it comes to tone, but it provides more volume than any other pick I've used and I use it when I need volume more than anything else. Keep in mind that just a pick being thicker does not equal more volume. There are many 1.5 - 2.0 mm picks that I've used that are very quiet. In your case, I believe the biggest issue is just practicing technique.
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    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Any mandolin player is going to struggle to be heard over a violin, and you've got to deal with two! If they played a little less melody at times, do a little more comping, you could be heard playing the melody. I can hear you at the beginning of the video before they fully jump in, and it sounds great. Sometimes the issue is the mandolin. One that sounds great by itself at the store may not cut through with the other instruments you play with. It has nothing to do with the brand or model. Sounds like the one you have will work, but if you get a chance to try some other mandolins with the group it will give you a better idea about yours. Then there is technique. You will need to get more energy into the instrument with your right hand, but playing it harder often makes it less loud. There is a lot of good advice in this thread. I suggest that you practice a lot with a softer pick such as a Dunlop grip plastic .88 (gray) or a Dunlop Turtle .60 (orange). That'll train your right hand to loosen up and move more and give you some insight into getting more volume. One of the best mandolin players I know plays with the gray Dunlop, and he stands out in a bluegrass or any other setting. The soft pick probably won't give you enough volume to play with two fiddles, but it will prepare you to use the hard pick more effectively. Don't be discouraged - it's a journey that we all go through.
    Tom

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  18. #16

    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    I know I can hear myself more with a softer pick, that's for sure, but other people seem to say the harder one is louder to them. It's weird but I feel like my right hand moves more than it apparently does. I also did not realize how small I am compared to the others.

  19. #17
    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    I suggest using the hard pick when you are playing with folks if you are comfortable with it, but do your personal practice for a while mostly with a soft pick. The hard pick might be easier to practice tremolo and playing with a drone double stop, both of which will require a little broader sweep with the right hand. That double stop basically doubles the energy going into the mandolin without applying any extra power, so you get a volume and tonal boost.
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Let the pick do the work

    - Butch Baldassari

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    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Have you tried thicker picks? Like many mandolin players I started with a guitar pick (1.0 mm) and kept working up. Now I find 2.0 mm is the minimum thickness to get the tone I want. I prefer the Wegen M250 overall, but when I want a brighter tone I like a 2.0 to 4.0 mm Gravity acrylic. Watching your video it doesn't look like your digging in at all - very little motion in your right hand. Have you tried heavier strings? I find J75s are a good bit louder than J74s for example. In a jam the mando should be able to be heard over anything but fiddle and banjo.

    It can be frustrating to play with an overly quiet picker. In our weekly jams we a guitar player who is very good (and also is a good singer). He is extremely quiet. When its his turn to take a lead in our group of 5 to 7 players about half of us just stop completely. The rest pretty much palm mute while he essentially plays solo. When he's done we all come back to normal. Your playing in the video looks like how we play to accommodate his soft playing.

  22. #20
    Registered User Ky Slim's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    .... a heavenly host of fiddles, a devilish cadre of guitars and one Satan's spawn hammer dulcimer, ...
    Thanks for this! Hey, you mentioned that you don't really play rhythm/chords but that you stick to the melody. I think you should try to learn the chords/rhythm part to a few tunes. Don't be shy.. You'll be surprised how loud a mandolin can be strumming open chords. The folks you jam with may actually ask you to quiet down a bit.

  23. #21
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    I also did not realize how small I am compared to the others.
    30 sec in
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

  24. #22

    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    A Cherub clip-on pickup run through a Roland Microcube. Microcubes can be ran on batteries. Placed under your chair, just about as unobtrusive as one could get, yet still "amped."

    That being said. If you are still developing your technique, this may save money and help in the short run. If your strategy is to eventually start gigging, you'll need an amp eventually anyway.

  25. #23
    Registered User mandomurph's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    Also experiment with the location of your picking area between the bridge and the last fret on the fretboard where you get the most volume. You could be picking back too close to the bridge to get maximum volume.
    mandomurph

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  26. #24
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    I wanted to see what everyone was talking about sbhikes video. Oh my goodness yes. One can see you are playing softly. I am not as well versed as others in diagnosis, but even if the video were part of a different topic, I would notice, "that mandolin player seems shy".

    This is good news actually. I think you could greatly increase your volume without spending any money.

    Some amateurish recommendations worth giving a try. Play into the corner of a room, up close to the corner like you were in grade school being punished. Then listen to yourself playing and try stuff to make it louder.

    Give your pick a little more flick, so instead of picking notes you are flicking notes. A little more snap, instead of what looks like a tap.

    Try launching your pick stroke from a greater distance. One thing that I have tried in similar situations - pretend you are playing very loud, and then do what you are pretending.

    Play as you would for someone sitting in front of you. Then gradually pretend that person is farther and farther away. Eventually get to playing to that imaginary audience as if he was wayyy in the back of the hall by the fire exit.

    I am not a great teacher, but the video does seem to indicate that the solution is in your hands, not your wallet.
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  27. #25
    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

    You need to practice with a lot more "oomph" in your playing.like the big Mon says " you got to whip it like a mule"..

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