Italian - German Mandolin Technique

[Jim Garber]

I believe that most musicians, even amateurs, would play in an ensemble in a manner to blend with the style, era, or whatever the other musicians are doing and that would mostly include phrasing, dynamics, ornamentation. Personally, I would not overthink the category or school of playing as long as there is some agreed direction of the above elements.

If you are playing with a large ensemble you would have a conductor who would guide you in the manner of playing. In a smaller group like a quartet or trio the decision would be more democratically determined. I don't know that the technique you hit a note, for instance, the angle of the pick, would make a serious difference but if it did then it is the musician's responsibility to adjust to the rest of the ensemble, especially if he or she stands out from the rest of the group.

Generally, the larger groups I am aware of often have a style they follow, sometimes even instruments that many of the players prefer according to the general slant of the group. If you are part of that group that is what you do, regardless who you studied with or what books you learned from. Importance here in ensemble playing is flexibility, I would think.

[Beanzy]

A question for our german residents; Would it make more sense to refer to this school as the Reichsmusikkammer or RMK system? to remove the blurring of origins by the current trend in english where it is identified by the country of origin. I can understand why it happens; as in the absence of any other unique system emerging, or a self proclaimed title, the country of origin becomes a shorthand, causing the clouding of its origins and motives in the past. However would using the RMK moniker be insulting to those who pursue it as a style for its own aesthetic reasons?

I find it interesting that the old Reichsmusikkammer system is allowed to be promoted in such a blanket manner where it seems to exclude the teaching of wider methods. Is there any place for other systems in what I always refer to as the Wuppertal bubble? How is it that there are no guarantees of cultural breadth required in the funding of such institutions? Or if there are, why are they not taken to task for only supporting the old nazi party designed system?

[Acquavella]

"A question for our german residents; Would it make more sense to refer to this school as the Reichsmusikkammer or RMK system?"

NO - definitely not. What the English speaking world calls the "German" school was developed after WWII was over. Yes - the use of tremolo was thinned out during this period but the actual physical technique developed later. The Wuppertal school would be more appropriate. That is where the physical technique was organized, solidified and institutionalized. Remember that there are other styles of playing here in Germany...currently, as we speak. It all depends on regions.

"I find it interesting that the old Reichsmusikkammer system is allowed to be promoted in such a blanket manner where it seems to exclude the teaching of wider methods."

Well, it really isn't at all. In regards to the music of Wolki and Ambrosius...have you ever seen the picture of the three monkeys? There you go. You will hear a lot of comments like "but the music is so beautiful" or "that was all in the past" or more often than not.....you won't get any answer or discussion. Germany, in general, has done a fantastic job of recognizing and living up to their past. The mandolin world can be a bit strange sometimes.

It is very important to stress that the "German" school that everyone is referencing was NOT created by Wolki, Ambrosius or Ritter. The modern "German" school is fundamentally based on the teachings of Gabriele Leone. At least, that is how it has been described to me by several of my teachers. Wolki and Ambrosius created a "new" neo barock music for plucked instruments but they didn't favour glide stroke or arpeggio technique. As far as I've seen, arpeggio technique doesn't really appear in either of their music. So the references above to Marlo Strauss doesn't quite match up. However, it does match up with Leone's teaching.....that dude was addicted to glide stroke and arpeggio technique. Very strong right hand technique. This is partly what has been discussed above. There is a larger picture in regards to the "German" school. Many different styles that don't fit into our English world definition. The same goes for when I hear Europeans talk about Bluegrass and American mandolinists. It is quite interesting hearing the views come the other way. What is the saying..... we shouldn't judge (or try to define) until we walk a mile in another man's moccasins.

I am not a huge poster on forums; just felt like backing up SA-R a bit. If you have any questions or would like to further this conversation, feel free to email me. Email can be found at www.chrisacquavella.com. Cheers.

[Beanzy]

Much appreciated as the before/after situation was very murky from an outsiders point of view and those developments from Leone through now definitely get lost on me.

As for the Wuppertal situation, really something for the BDZ to manage, not for here.
To this outsider it all just seems like the scales may not be very well balanced in terms of getting a wholly rounded mandolin education. Some cracking players though.

I understand about what you say regarding the tiptoeing around the subject. We had quite a few old nazis in Dublin when I grew up, some in my parent's social circles, they were all apparently 'tank commanders'. Then again we were experts at not talking about our own issues. My grandfather's civil war diaries & intelligence reports were only released in 2002 in case they kicked off old feuds.

Kicking myself that I couldn't make the BMG weekend, hearing great reports. Hope to catch a future one.

[John Goodin]

For me this has been one of the most interesting threads on this forum in a very long time. Serious issues discussed thoughtfully and respectfully with comments from real scholars and serious players.

My own two bits refers back to SA-R's original comment about "canonization" in music, particularly her reference to Lydia Goehr's book The Imaginary Museum of Musical Works: an essay in the philosophy of music, a book I hope to read someday.

Currently, however, I am reading The End of Early Music by Bruce Haynes which refers frequently to Goehr's work. The Amazon description (the Kindle ed. falls within my budget) begins: "Part history, part explanation of early music, this book also plays devil's advocate, criticizing current practices and urging experimentation. Haynes, a veteran of the movement, describes a vision of the future that involves improvisation, rhetorical expression, and composition."

Canonization is discussed at length (at least in the first half of the book, I'm still reading) by Haynes as something to be aware of and cautious about. He points out that roughly before 1800 there was little, if any, talk about "great works" and the need to save them for future generations. Old music was old music.

Canonization doesn't just cover particular pieces of music but also attitudes towards composers, instrumental techniques, etc. I shouldn't say much more, I could be reading the whole book wrong. But I can say that Haynes is letting me see some things in new ways.

I suppose I come down on the side of whatever ideas inspire me to play and enjoy playing the mandolin more. And there are lots of ideas out there that do that.

So, thanks for all the great comments.

[crisscross]

On Youtube, I recently found this nice video by Michael Reichenbach (Mandoisland)

He writes, that he found the sheet music in the book "Die Mandoline", Auserwähltes für Mandoline solo
https://www.alle-noten.de/Gitarre-E-...Mandoline.html
I also ordered the book and it appeared in 1989 in the VEB Verlag deutscher Musik in Leipzig
That was the last year of the GDR and probably the book was one of its last products.
There are some pieces by Calace, Denis and Munier in the book, but most of the pieces are from composers, I never heard of.
That led me to search for "Mandolin in the GDR".
I found this exam work by Ariane Zernecke.Die Mandoline in der DDR
http://www.mandoline.de/artikel/mand...in_der_ddr.pdf
I didn't find the time yet to study this work in detail, but one of the main GDR mandolin methods seems to have been the Weimarer Methodik für Mandoline by Erich Repke and another one Die neue Mandolinenschule by Alfred Dittrich and Walter Socha.

In her introduction, the author of this exam work writes, that when she had the first concert in western Germany, she was relly confused, that mandolin playing in the GDR had developped in a completely different direction than in western Germany.
In the eastern part, the Weimarer Methodik taught to move the forearm, in the western part, movement came from the wrist...(Among other differences, certainly!)

[mandoisland]

Great thread! And thanks for posting my video here!

I have always been interested in literature for mandolin solo, that's why I like to play pieces from the book "Die Mandoline". I am just one mandolin player in Germany who is not so much influenced by the Wuppertal school of mandolin playing. And I have seen that the players who studied in Wuppertal have gone very variable ways - compare for example Detlef Tewes, Marijke Wiesenekker, Annika Hinsche, Steffie (SA-R) or Silvan Wagner.

I had the chance to play under Siegfried Behrend with the Deutsches Zupforchester once. He was a guy like Avi Avital or also Alon Sariel are today - a great musician (and conductor / teacher) with best connections to the world of classical music.

It's always been interesting to watch the mandolin world develop - there are so many great players, orchestras, conducters, compositions, so many ways to play the mandolin.

What I am still missing is a complete, comprehensive modern mandolin method from Germany (to add to my timeline of mandolin methods).

But if you look at all the fantastic Bluegrass mandolin players in the USA you can also say that it's not necessary to have a good mandolin method - you can also learn to play without.

I think the German / Wuppertal style of mandolin playing is aiming at a very pure , clean and clear sound - but for some kind of music this sound is not always the best option. But it is a great base to develop your own style of playing.