Any fiddle players?

[soliver]

+1 for fiddlerman:

I asked a similar question about a year or so ago because my wife was interested in picking back up the violin. My daughter also plays violin but had an instrument at the time. Long story short with a LOT of recommendations from folks here on the cafe we ended up buying from http://fiddlerman.com. They have (to my unskilled ear) really good quality instruments for a very affordable prices. Their customer service is outstanding too. We ordered a basic package for my wife and they were out of stock, so they sent us the next step up and now she has a very beautiful violin. We were pleased enough with fiddlerman that when we found my daughter's 1/2 size had a separated neck and didn't want to invest any more money in repairing it, we also bought her new instrument from them as well.

I believe the instruments are crafted overseas and then completely set-up and fine tuned in the US by the fiddlerman team. Their package comes with a very good quality carbon fiber bow.

[farmerjones]

If I had to do it over again, I'd find out where the kids are getting their violins for school. I eventually met one of these instrument rental fellows. He always had some cherry picked units. You can rent or buy, and he knows a thing or two about repairs too.

I've played since 2003. I'd find a fiddle, not violin, teacher. It's like petting a cat. Some folks are cat people, some aren't.

[Tobin]

If I had to do it over again, I'd find out where the kids are getting their violins for school. I eventually met one of these instrument rental fellows. He always had some cherry picked units. You can rent or buy, and he knows a thing or two about repairs too.

I've played since 2003. I'd find a fiddle, not violin, teacher. It's like petting a cat. Some folks are cat people, some aren't.

You make a very good point. The violin world and the fiddle world are two different places. I think of it like a Venn diagram. They are largely separate, but they overlap in a very small area. It is very important to know where they are different and where they come together.

When it comes to instruments, buying a violin from the same place students get theirs for school orchestras may be OK in terms of finding an affordable model. But the shop may or may not know anything about setting it up for fiddling. Classical players tend to use a much higher arch at the bridge, with higher action for playing in higher positions, where fiddlers generally want a flatter curve on the bridge and lower action. I've actually had people at a violin shop sneer at me when I wanted to talk about setting up a violin for fiddling. And when I say sneer, I mean an honest-to-goodness sneer, with a curled upper lip.

And the same thing can apply to finding a teacher. Probably 95% of violin teachers are going to want to teach you classical violin techniques (Suzuki... ugh), and make you go through their years-long process. That's all fine and dandy if you want to play with perfect classical technique. And it may have benefits in the early stages of learning the basics of bowing, intonation, etc. But if you want to be a fiddler, learn from a fiddler and not a classical violinist. You can go to any fiddle contest and immediately tell which of the kids are real fiddlers versus classically-trained violinists playing at being fiddlers.

[Verne Andru]

Very good points all, and why the Mando Cafe rules!

I live right next door to the Vancouver Academy of Music but have not ventured in as I really don't have any interest in lessons and they are a conservatory focused school which isn't my playing cuppa. Sorry - I'm pretty much a self-teaching sort of person, notwithstanding the fact that I've taught in colleges, etc. for more than a few years of my life. As my years are getting on and time in ever shorter supply I simply couldn't devote to a class regime.

But it might make sense to walk over there and see if there are any used violins about as there are probably quite a few peeps who have given up. I'd say that might explain the large number of fiddles on my CL.

I like the analogy between bowing and picking about the bowing requiring you to work at everything. Small point here tho - my understanding is the mandolin "tremolo" technique is due to the fact that mandolins have no sustain and the trem is to get around that.

I'm 6', slim build with size appropriate hands, etc. so I should be good for off-the-shelf solutions.

Eastman started out doing classical instruments and only [relatively] recently moved into guitars, mando's etc. I have a lot of respect for those people and what they are doing.

[Tobin]

Older German made instruments can be purchased for less but often require work to make them playable and that can make them expensive quickly. Also, purchase a mute to use ..your family and pets will thank you ..... the first few months are more noise than music.... R/

Yes, definitely invest in a mute! Or multiple mutes, for different purposes. Let's talk about them for the sake of new players.

One thing a new fiddler should know from the start is that fiddles can be very loud. You can control your dynamics to some degree with your bow, but that only goes so far. If you're playing it at full volume, unmuted, you would be wise to consider wearing earplugs, or at least an earplug in your left ear. A surprisingly high number of fiddlers/violinists end up with hearing loss, since that powerful sound is being projected right under your ear. So first off, protect your own ears for your own sake. But also, protect everone else's ears from your practice noises for their sake, and don't be afraid to use a mute when playing with others in small groups when you want to match their volume but still play full-tilt with your bow.

Below is a photo I just snapped of the various mutes I keep in my fiddle case (I just so happen to have my fiddle with me at work today since I'm taking it to the jam this evening).

The one I use most is the wire mute that is mounted on the strings behind the bridge. It offers a fair bit of volume reduction when it's pushed up to the bridge, but also darkens the tone considerably and eliminates a lot of overtones. I often push it up to the bridge when playing backup, then pull it back before I take a break in a song. Or I keep it on the bridge all the time when playing duet stuff with my wife on her mandola.

Sitting on the top of my fiddle, at left, is a common Tourte mute. This is the least powerful of the mutes, and offers very little volume reduction, while mainly just taking the edge off of the overtones. It is a performance mute, meaning it is designed to use in a full orchestra/band setting. I consider it more of a "tone reducer" than a mute.

The big black one at center is an Ultra violin/viola mute. It slips over the top of the bridge with the "fingers" going between the strings. Very strong volume reduction capability, making it a practice mute, but it makes my fiddle sound very nasal. I can't stand using this one.

The brass one at right is another practice mute. It has the best volume reduction, and still maintains as decent a tone as you could hope for. It adds a lot of mass to the bridge. If I need to practice quietly, this is the one I use.

Keep in mind that any mute is going to cause you to use different bow pressure than you otherwise would, and I find that it makes playing the low notes more difficult (or makes me bear down a little more on my bow). Practicing with a mute on can be good for family relations, but it can have an effect on how you play when you're not using one. So it's a good idea to use a mute when you have to, but not all the time.

[Mandobar]

I think that some sort of instruction in bowing, whether from a friend, or even from Peghead Nation (Chad Manning's Beginner/Intermediate course is great) goes a long way. I had so many questions, especially around bow care, tuning (friction pegs can be quite cantakerous), etc.

One of the most important things (along with learning to bow and phrase tunes, is learning to tune and play in tune. Intonation is key if you want to play with other folks. I'd suggest using one of those Planet Waves violin tuners:
https://smile.amazon.com/DAddario-NS...=violin+tuners

I keep it on and facing towards me as I practice and play. The head on it swivels around.

[Seter]

I have a cheap Cecilio electric violin, I haven't played it very much though yet as I want to have some proper instruction to avoid starting off with bad habits. Volume-wise it is nice, I rarely ever play it plugged in and played unplugged it is about as loud as an acoustic guitar, which I'm sure my neighbors appreciate.

[Beanzy]

Interesting to hear about the practice mutes. I only ever use mutes to get different tones from the fiddle, as we are very lucky to live in the middle of nowhere, the barn is very long with thick stone walls & we have a very large music room. We're all used to hearing each other practicing too so there's noone to complain. I have two Ebony ones and a rosewood one just for the tonal variety. The ebony ones give it a sound not unlike some of the older viol family instruments. The rosewood one is a bit like the basic rubber ones in tone, quite soft even slightly 'wooly'. The ebony ones can be lovely if you're playing something like a lament or a slow tune.

However the ear protection if your really going to bow it properly is a good idea. You can become a timid bower if you don't practice As well as using proper earplugs, I often use a sillicone earbud headphone in my left ear which attenuates a lot of the soundc and enables me to play along with recordings on the iPod at the same time. The right ear doesn't get hit with nearly as much volume so I normally leave that open for intonation etc. Not something I ever had to worry about on the 'cello as that's not stuck a few inches from the ear.

[sbhikes]

I came to mandolin from the fiddle, sort of. I think fiddle is harder. A friend of mine once said that you just have to embrace how badly you suck. I embraced it for 10 years and gave up. Maybe I'll try again someday though.

[Joel Glassman]

Get help from a good teacher and practice a LOT!

Yes. Also, watch a lot of video of fiddlers. Look at yourself in the mirror to make sure you're
playing correctly. See how slowly you can move the bow while maintaining a smooth clear
sound. How much bow pressure is required to get a strong clear sound without distortion?
Change the direction of a bow stroke without accenting the note. Learn 5 or 6 tunes by ear
exactly as played by a teacher. The point is to learn what it feels like to play well, and get some
advice. After doing this you can start copying music off of recordings.

[RickPick]

Here's a link to a site I wish I'd found BEFORE I started buying fiddles.... http://www.thehotviolinist.com/qa-be...hopping-guide/

[Jim Garber]

Nope, no oval holes, no A-style or F-style, no sunburst finishes, no exotic woods. The differences between a Guarneri or Strad pattern are subtle.

There are some truly oddball fiddles out there even old ones, tho I agree that I have not seen any oval hole ones. The oddest one I saw on the CL link that Verne posted was the Georges Chanot violin. I believe that his father made many guitar-shaped violins with usual soundholes.

I own and play a few true odd violins by the American maker/designer Frank M. Ashley around 1915. I happen to like the sound they produce but they are very non-normal.

Most fiddle or violin players play the standard styles copied after the old makers: Stradivari, Guarneri, Stainer, Maggini.

[Charlieshafer]

Hey Verne; The one thing I would recommend is taking a lesson or two with a classical teacher for two things: bow hold and posture. Poor technique in either of these will hamper not just your ability to play well, but also keep you limited to repertoire. Technique is key with violin, and while you'll get a lot of "We don't need no stinkin' technique", you do. And it's not just the ability to play more challenging material, it's also injury prevention. It doesn't matter if you ever play a classical phrase even, but the technique is key. A good teacher can set you straight in just a couple of lessons. One to teach, the next to make sure you're practicing correctly. After that it's up to you.

[DougC]

I'm an Irish fiddler and classical violin player AND a violin luthier. So yea, here is another fiddler who plays mandolin. Tobin is right. Get a good violin and bow. The reason being is that bad violin equipment fights you in subtle ways where a bad mandolin sounds and plays bad right from the start. Easy. But no cheap 'finds' as there may be in guitars. Reputation is golden and there are a TON of bad people out there preying on the ignorance of beginners. Oh yea, there are ignorant sellers too... lots of them.
I remember starting out and taking lessons from a friend. I got able to play a few tunes only because I focused on 'proper technique' e.g. holding it properly, moving my bow arm in the proper way in front of a mirror. And lots of careful assessment of my posture, bowing at 90 degrees from the string, a straight left wrist, pinky finger close to the fingerboard, not gripping the neck or bow. Endless review in front of the mirror. And man, did it pay off. I could notice tons of players who had played more than me and they sound awful because they really missed something.

Now there is the internet and you tube 'lessons'. And there are some good ones out there. Professor V is a good one.

[T.D.Nydn]

Like Tobin says above,,fiddles can be loud,,like,they're right next to your ear,,I have to practice with a gun plug in my left ear....

[fidlplr1979]

Like Tobin said, the fiddle is a mighty jealous mistress and she's high-maintenance as well. I was drawn to the fiddle after picking up the mandolin in my late teens and it was all down hill from there. I soon left the confines of a beginners Kentucky A-style mandolin to play my grandfather's pre-war German Strad-copy. As I began to progress on the fiddle I found the demand for fiddle-players to be far greater than that of mandolinists in my area of central Virginia and I was soon on my way to being a regular session fiddle player for lots of local bands including one that went on to do pretty well for themselves called the Hackensaw Boys. I was the original fiddle player from 2000 to 2002 and we did a national tour in the summer of '01 that was by far the most fun I've ever had playing music in a touring band. After years of playing in various local groups I started my own and began playing the mandolin more. After the purchase of a nicer f5-style mandolin ( I had an f-2 style for years ) I really got back into mandolin in a big way and that led me to join Mandolin Cafe. Now I play mandolin more than I do fiddle for my own personal enjoyment around the house and about 50/50 when I'm playing out. I guess I told you all this to demonstrate the very alluring draw the fiddle has and that once it's got it's claws into you, it's too late-you're hooked for life. Ha. I will say that playing the mandolin has been a great help to my fiddle playing and it allows me to try things I am incapable of on the fiddle. To second what Tobin already said- mandolins, like violins, come in all grades and price points and it's best to avoid the total junk under 100$ stuff and even under 200$. You're best bet is really to avoid all new violins unless you are willing to shell out a grand or more, and look for older used violins from the turn of the century up thru the 30's and 40's. You can find some very nice sounding and looking instruments for a few hundred dollars and you may even get lucky and find an old bow. Strangely enough these can be even more highly prized than fiddles and finding a decent older make is quite hard as they've become a bit of a collectors item. That said, for 100$ you can get a decent Brazilwood bow that will serve you well until you can/want to afford something nicer. I play a 3000$ violin with an old 75$ bow I picked up in a little music store in Black Mountain NC years ago and haven't needed to replace it yet (although I've had it rehaired so many times I could have bought a real Pernambuco bow but oh well)
Enjoy the journey.

[Jim Garber]

I started playing fiddle and mandolin at the same time. Since I played guitar and a little tenor banjo as a teenager, I was used to picking fretted instruments. The mandolin was an excellent middle instrument and worked well for me when I became fatigued practicing the fiddle. You can slouch much more when playing mandolin.

The first real band I was in had two other fiddle players and two others who were both good guitar players so I actually played quite a bit of mandolin in that group. Mandolin allows me to play more varied genres like swing and classical whereas I mostly play traditional folk styles on the fiddle. I don't plan on giving up on either any time soon. I enjoy both instruments and the ability to play both puts me in good stead at jams and performances. I would never say I am a virtuoso, but I certainly do not embarrass myself playing either.

I agree with fidlplr1979 that the best bargains for fiddles are the old ones esp if you find them cheap. There are piles of decent German fiddles from the 1920s and even earlier and many are for sale under $500 and may only need a new set of strings or possibly new bridge. I was at an old time festival recently and there was one dealer there who probably had a few dozen fiddles for sale at reasonable prices. See if there are any similar events near you. Nothing compares to playing (if possible) or at least hearing what a fiddle sounds like in person. Good luck in your search!

[Tobin]

To second what Tobin already said- mandolins, like violins, come in all grades and price points and it's best to avoid the total junk under 100$ stuff and even under 200$. You're best bet is really to avoid all new violins unless you are willing to shell out a grand or more, and look for older used violins from the turn of the century up thru the 30's and 40's. You can find some very nice sounding and looking instruments for a few hundred dollars and you may even get lucky and find an old bow.

I agree with fidlplr1979 that the best bargains for fiddles are the old ones esp if you find them cheap. There are piles of decent German fiddles from the 1920s and even earlier and many are for sale under $500 and may only need a new set of strings or possibly new bridge.

As both of my main fiddles are old German production violins, I'm obviously biased towards them. When it comes to mature tone versus cost, I do think they can beat out a lot of the new-production imports, dollar for dollar. But it is worth noting to newbies that not all older violins are worth considering, especially when it comes to the German trade violins from the early 1900s. At that time, Germany was where cheap junky violins were churned out of factories like they are today in Asia. Many of the old German violins were made with cost-cutting techniques, like the lack of corner blocks, integral bass bars carved from the same piece of wood as the top, etc. Some of the attributes can be worked around, or may not necessarily be detrimental to tone. But these are the sorts of things you want to carefully inspect when considering an old fiddle, especially a German one.

Obviously, if it sounds good when you play it or hear someone else play it, then that should be sufficient. But if you're buying online or having to buy without playing it (many of them are sold at antique stores, auctions, or other places where they are not in playable condition, and are often missing parts), then it's worth looking at the details.

One piece of advice for the uninitiated: never trust the label in an old violin. They lie! You have to spend some time learning how to recognize the various styles of violin patterns (Stradivari, Maggini, Stainer, Amati, etc., etc.), learn how to recognize high quality versus low quality (internal construction, purfling, sound holes, scroll and peg box details), and know what you're looking for in terms of other identification marks (like import stamps). It can be maddening trying to figure out whether it's a "good" old fiddle or a hunk of junk, as well as trying to find a fair value to pay. Don't let yourself get rooked by a seller who insists that the label is accurate or that the story that came with the instrument is true. Deceptive practices in fiddle trading have been going on for centuries.

I think someone further up in this thread mentioned Royce Burt in Florida. I have been hankering for one of his fiddles for a couple of years now, and one of these days I'll pull the proverbial trigger on one. He builds new fiddles which have a very good reputation, but he also regraduates/revoices older European fiddles. He has lots of video clips available. If I buy another old German fiddle, I will probably buy it from him, knowing that it has been gone over completely to maximize its volume and tone, and it will have a fresh setup. His prices are pretty darn reasonable for what you get, as far as I can tell.

[Ausdoerrt]

Hi, violin player here, classical since as long as I can remember, non-classical for over 7 years now. Want to get into fiddle music, but haven't had the time so far.

A few general remarks on all of the above.

- Carbon fiber bows are good. Usually as good or better than a wood bow at the same price.
- Do get someone who knows about violins to help you, preferrably not the seller Also note that not all violin players know much about violins, though we can at least tell crap tone from decent tone and assess playability.
- Violin setup is even more crucial for sound and playability than mandolin setup. It can cost a pretty penny, but it's worth it. New, out-of-the-box instruments flat out require a setup to play.
- Violinists DO TOO use machine tuners, they're called fine-tuners. There are also some sort of fancy modern geared pegs, but I'm yet to try those.
- Decent, playable solid-body electric violins start at around $600. Chinese violin-shaped objects under that price are generally known to be crap in most/all departments. That said, I wouldn't recomment a beginner to get an electric, unless you never plan to play acoustic. You won't get the same feel or range of sound as you would from a proper violin, and you won't practice the way you should.
- I also wouldn't recomment practice mutes for the same reason. They can be great for seasoned players, but a beginner is better off finding a place to practice in peace, at full sound.

But it is worth noting to newbies that not all older violins are worth considering, especially when it comes to the German trade violins from the early 1900s. At that time, Germany was where cheap junky violins were churned out of factories like they are today in Asia. Many of the old German violins were made with cost-cutting techniques, like the lack of corner blocks, integral bass bars carved from the same piece of wood as the top, etc. Some of the attributes can be worked around, or may not necessarily be detrimental to tone. But these are the sorts of things you want to carefully inspect when considering an old fiddle, especially a German one.

I've got one instrument exactly as described - no corner blocks, thick-ish top, probably no proper bass bar. Thankfully, I got it nearly for free, but I wouldn't advise one to spend much money on such an instrument - a decent modern student violin is probably better in every way.

That said, this specific violin's treblier, flatter, simpler sound does work quite well for folk and non-classical music. It's not that great for classical playing, though. Here's sort of what it sounds like: https://shamrocks.bandcamp.com/track/ride-on

[Patrick Hull]

I suggest you contact Stephen Perry at Gianna Violins. He is a member of Mandolin Cafe. He is very knowledgeable, makes quality violins and sells other instruments as well. Tell him what you want and I would trust him to sell you a serviceable violin at a reasonable price. He did that for me. He can also sell you a decent bow. I would not take a shot in the dark by buying on CL and definitely not buy anything off of the internet. I'm actually not sure if the name of his business has changed, but I think you can find him. If that doesn't work you need guidance from someone you can trust. You can absolutely get into some junk and that will likely be fatal to learning to play. I got my fiddle about 10 years ago, and I play other instruments as well from time to time, but I've progressed to the level of occasionally playing with a group at church or other functions. But, in my mind, once you learn to use the bow in some marginal manner, and learn where the notes are (you sort of already know) everything from there is just practicing and getting better. I know that is a gigantic simplification, but you can learn, however, it will take a good long while to get good.