Difficulty when playing with vocalist

[mobi]

Many tunes I can play (moderately) well as solo in mandolin.

But when I try to play with vocalist, I find that I can't match the scale!

It is easy to play on D, A, G on mandolin but if vocalist is singing on a different scale, I am stuffed

I am even more confused what to do in a chorus. I can't even figure out what is the overall scale for a chorus (as different people singing in different scale).

Is mandolin at all suitable for accompanying a chrous?

[wildpikr]

Hello mobi,

I've encountered that same problem and I'd guess many of us have...

D, A and G are the easier keys for the mandolin due to the use of open strings and staying comfortably in first position for scales and melody. That being said, it goes awry when accompanying a vocalist who requires a different key to accommodate their voice, so you're left with two choices: learn the chord positions in the other keys [particularly for the vocalist you're currently dealing with] or use a capo... With a choral group of vocalists the key signature is important also...one must learn to concentrate on the music accompaniment while at the same time hearing the voices.

I've gone the route of learning to play in more key signatures [and learned the corresponding chord positions/shapes] without the use of a capo and it has helped with my overall knowledge of the instrument.

Whichever way you go, try to make it fun and musical. Enjoy the journey!

[Mandobart]

It sounds like you may be new to some basic theory. When you say "can't match the scale" do you mean you are playing in a different key and are unable to find the key that matches the vocalist? Some singers don't sing on key - they may be off a quarter tone from the "real" note. Do they try to match the key you're playing in? Is your mandolin tuned to the standard A440 Hz? When you say "easy to play on D, G, A" do you mean you can play in those keys (meaning you can play the 5 basic major chords needed to play in the keys of G, D and A) or do you mean you can play any song as long as its in the key of D (you only know the D, G and A chords)?

First make sure you're tuned up properly. Google "circle of fifths" and spend a little time recognizing that if you start in the key of F and work around clockwise you only need to learn 8 basic major chords to play in the keys of F, C, G, D, A and E. If your singer can't adjust to sing a song in one of those keys....I guess they need to sing a capella.

[UsuallyPickin]

Another step in your mandolin experience is to learn to play in closed positions. Mandobart is correct about the eight chords a key.... Most simple music ... "folk" tunes ... blues, country, 'grass use five or less. Closed position scales means no open strings are used. There is plenty of information under the ffcp search, four finger closed position. Singers can be difficult at times. Be patient , be in tune, learn your keys. R/

[Mandobar]

most vocalists tend to be more comfortable in A flat, especially as we get older (although there are plenty of young artists who love B flat- example: Della Mae's Boston Town is B flat as I discovered recently). While a guitarist can use a capo in most cases, as mandolin players we need to adapt. I think that idea of learning how to play in closed positions is a great idea.

Learning to play tunes by ear is probably the best training anyone can have. The more you do this, the better you will get at accompanying other folks.

[DavidKOS]

If you learn to play in EVERY key, then this is a non-issue.

[mobi]

My "ear" is not well trained. I mostly play by "sight".

Do they try to match the key you're playing in?

That's news to me! The vocalists I know believe it is the instrumentalists who needs to match them!

I can match vocalists by playing in a different scale when I know beforehand what scale s/he will sing and I have transposed the tune already using some tool e.g. MuseScore. But can't do it on the spot without any prior homework.

[Mandobart]

...Mandobart is correct about the eight chords a key.... Most simple music ... "folk" tunes ... blues, country, 'grass use five or less...

No I mean 8 major chords (F, Bb, C, G, D, A, E, B) are the only chords you need to play the common as dirt I-IV-V progression in 6 keys (F, C, G, D, A and E). You only need 3 chords per key for these. If you want to play the doo wop so frequently found in old pop and show tunes, add the vi (Dm, Am, Em, Bm, F#m, C#m). If you want to expand to more folk and rock tunes add the ii (Gm, Dm, Am, Em, Bm, F#m). See how much repetition there is as you add intervals? So for most songs in the typical genres that most of us play, all you need is at most 5 chords per key, and most of these overlap into other keys. One key's I is the next key's IV. One key's vi is another's ii.

If you want to play jazz....forget everything and start over!

[Ivan Kelsall]

I've taught myself to play mandolin by doing one thing - sitting in front of my PC,listening to Bluegrass on I/net radio & trying to play everything that comes up - in every key.

There was a thread on here a while back about playing in the key of E - well how would you play 'Northern White Clouds' or 'Southern Comfort' if you can't play in E ?.

The only way to truly solve your problem is by pushing yourself to play in any key. Choose a favourite CD,play it, & try to play what you're listening to regardless of the key - in fact,choose a tune in a key that you can't play in & learn it by ear. I can almost guarantee that by the time you've learned the tune,you'll be so familiar with the new key that you could play it in your sleep.

Practice is the ONLY way. I play in the keys of Bb / A / B / C / D / E / F & G every day - i have to, to be able to play the songs / tunes that i like & use to practice to.

You say that you can play in D - well move your fingering up 2 frets & you'll be playing in E - one fret more & you're in F. The same goes for A - move up 2 frets & you're in B - move up one fret more & you're in C. You simply need to learn the left hand fingering in the new positions, both going up & coming down the fingerboard. It's not 'quite' as simple as it sounds,but it's not difficult either = it need practice.
Ivan

[Mandoplumb]

Ivan is right. Because it is tuned in 5ths, in theory you just move location on the fingerboard to change keys. The problem comes when we depend on open strings, that's why G, D, and A are easier to play in. Move a tune you know in G to second position, learn to play with no open strings, imagine the nut as a noted string and you will start to see patterns that allow you to move where ever you need to play in any chord, even Db.

[farmerjones]

Similar to drinking out of a fire hose, advancing one's ear training and advancing one's chord theory at the same time. But they relate. But work from what you know. If you're playing in D, G, or A, can you hear or anticipate the change from the I to the IV, or V chord? If you don't know what I, IV or V means, Google, "Nashville numbering." Bart said a whole lot of good stuff. Start simple, with two or three chord tunes. Is the first change to the IV or the V chord? One can even get better than 50/50 just guessing. Hey, I go to the wrong chord all the time, but I hear it and change quickly. Then the next time around I remember. Sometime one think there's a change and there isn't. Sometimes the change comes a bit late. Next time remember. Simple as that.

Now, get to the point where a tune gets boring to chord along, then try to sing the lyric. Suddenly, the new facet makes it challenging again.

To kick off a tune, play an intro, sing the first verse and chorus while chording, then play a break, then sing another verse and chorus, and put a tail on it. All as a nicely packaged unit. This is a skill. One learns much from the very first tune. Then to do it again and again to accumulate hours of self-contained, free standing Music. This is achievement! Tens of pounds or dollars can be made! This is why people think I'm crazy, because I've wasted my life in such ways.

[JeffD]

My "ear" is not well trained. I mostly play by "sight".

It will come. Give it time. Practice playing by ear whenever you can. It just takes practice.

That's news to me! The vocalists I know believe it is the instrumentalists who needs to match them!

That has been my experience in most bands. In a jam session the vocalist is more often than not a guitar player, and so the key he or she is in is more likely to be reasonable.

I can match vocalists by playing in a different scale when I know beforehand what scale s/he will sing and I have transposed the tune already using some tool e.g. MuseScore. But can't do it on the spot without any prior homework.

Not yet anyway. Again practice. Take a simple tune you know well by ear. Even something juvenile, and try playing it all over the map. Play it starting on every note on every string, figuring it out again and again. Just practice.

[MikeEdgerton]

That has been my experience in most bands. In a jam session the vocalist is more often than not a guitar player, and so the key he or she is in is more likely to be reasonable...

Actually I can't agree with that. I have a friend that is very good at capoing up the neck on her guitar to sing in Eb, Bb, really any key that doesn't come naturally to me

I still like her though.

[DavidKOS]

Not yet anyway. Again practice. Take a simple tune you know well by ear. Even something juvenile, and try playing it all over the map. Play it starting on every note on every string, figuring it out again and again. Just practice.

If you do this and really play simple stuff in EVERY key, you will learn to play in all keys.

Open strings are a wonderful choice - but only when they are a choice, not all one can play.