Flatty/Pancake Shootout?

[soliver]

I know there are a lot of builders who make flat tops and or Reproduction Gibson Army-Navy Mandolins; has anyone every played several different versions side by side?

ie: how does a Poe Scout compare to a Crystal Forrest, compare to a Redline traveler, compare to a Flatiron 3M, compare to a Big Muddy, compare to a Morris, even compare to an original Gibson A/N pancake or Alright, and etc etc etc???... Mostly just curious really. I am saving up to get a pancake down the road and I'm mostly interested in a Crystal Forest, but don't want to turn down a Flatiron in the classifieds if the sound is comparable and esp if the price is right.


Thoughts?

[pheffernan]

While I haven't tried all of the builders you've listed, I have owned five of them, most simultaneously and the rest consecutively. I started on a Mid-Missouri M0, spruce over mahogany, and found it to be the most lutish of the bunch. It's the one that I would take to a Renaissance Fair, very spartan, bright and lively. It was followed by a Flatiron 1N pancake, which was a real screamer. It's almost shocking how much sound can come out of these little unassuming instruments, making them perfect for an old time jam (or in fatt-dad's case, the beach). I then purchased my first of two Redline Travelers, very reminiscent of the Flatiron only with a little more bottom end tonally and a lot more modern conveniences in terms of playability (adjustable truss rod, adjustable bridge, bigger frets, radiused board, etc.). It's the one I would bring with me to travel, and truthfully I've been mulling over the purchase of another one to leave at work. Fourth in line was a Gypsy Vagabond made by the late Walt Kuhlman that I scoured heaven and Earth to find. It had a similar shape to the MidMo but a deeper body, making it more resonant with long sustain. It was great for drones, making it a fun choice for Irish tunes.

After more than a year of owning all four, I decided to cull the herd and chose the Flatiron as the best sounding of the bunch. So I sold the MidMo to my buddy Dan, traded the Redline to my buddy Josh, and moved the Gypsy as well. But while the Flatiron sounded great, probably still does, I didn't love its tiny frets and full neck profile, so in a moment of weakness, I broke down and bought a second Redline Traveler. My plan at the time was to have a shootout of my own and may the best pancake win, but plans changed when my buddy Jim acquired a Poe Scout and simply would not stop raving about it. So ultimately, I actually decided to sell both to fund a custom build from Andy since I knew exactly what I wanted, and he delivered an instrument that bests the Flatiron sonically, surpasses the Redline in terms of playability, and offers aesthetics (modeled on the Gibson Alrite) and features (like a varnish finish and stainless steel frets) unavailable on either.

So what did I learn in the process? Well, I learned the truth of advice so often repeated in this forum: it helps to play them first. Except that I would hasten to add that, in my case, it helps to own them for a while. So while you're in the discerning phase, I learned that it's best to buy used, where the depreciation has already been taken out; at worst, you might lose out on shipping and PayPal fees if the instrument proves not to be a keeper. In the long run, that tuition is cheap for the education that you receive. I learned that I personally prefer pancakes to other flattop designs and more modern playability features to I guess traditional ones, but of course, tastes vary. I learned that flattops are a ridiculously good value, particularly used, and that in the mandolin world, it takes exponentially more money to get incrementally better instruments.

Having never played a Morris, Crystal Forest, Weber, or Arches, I cannot offer a firsthand opinion on their instruments, although I've read good reviews of each. But if budget were a concern, then I would go for a Flatiron if I could get on with traditional playability features and a used Redline if I couldn't. I have purchased and sold several in the $400-$600 range.

Good luck in your search!
Patrick

[fatt-dad]

very happy with my Flatiron 1N.

Great story, Pheff!

f-d

[bratsche]

3 words: Sawchyn Beaver Tail.*

bratsche

*As usual, I speak more for mandolas than mandolins...

[JeffD]

I haven't tried all those you are considering. I had a Flatiron 3MW mandola. It was shockingly loud. I currently have a Big Muddy M-11 and a Weber Aspen II both of which I love. The M-11 appeals to me because of it is all mahogany which really enriches the tone, and the Aspen has a rich ringy dingy bell like tone I also love.

The ultimate answer, as you know, is try and try.

I am not a fan of shoot outs in general because you are comparing specific models, heck, specific instruments in specific condition and have to generalize from those specifics to reach any conclusions. That said, shoot out results do provide some information to fill out the picture. As an example, I am so very enamored of the M-11 mahogany sound, and would rank it above the other Big Muddy models (my own tastes and opinions) and because of that any general ranking of Big Muddy would be necessarily inaccurate. But the build quality and playability of the Big Muddy, regardless of model, has always impressed me.

[JeffD]

I have played an old Gibson Army Navy, but it was so worn and compromised and repaired that any conclusions, good or bad, could more accurately be attributed to its condition than its origins. That said I liked it.

[soliver]

Thanks so much Pheff, that was a great write up.

I am genuinely interested in Flat tops because I like what read about them, the price is right and am interested in something with a different sound: oval hole'd for more resonance and just different for the sake of different... plus MAS has me wanting a number 2.

I can say the Big Muddy Mando's just don't appeal to me. I don't care for the shape and I'm not impressed by what I hear of them on the net. I AM always tempted by the 1N's that show up in the classifieds because of the price, but I hesitate because I am so tempted by the customizable options of ordering from a builder; Poe and Redline cost a good bit more but Terry at CF has a very doable price for me. The main sticking point on one of the Flatiron's is that I believe they have a flat fretboard and having played both flat and radiused fretboards, I just really really prefer a radiused board. I'd say it's the deal killer for me. Maybe one of you can tell me, do the Flatiron models (1N up to 3M) have flat or radiused fretboards?

I'm a little more than 1/2 way to raising the funds... anybody wanna buy and armrest

[Stevo75]

Terry is building me an A/N style pancake as we speak. I'll report back when I get it. Although I've never played a Flatiron pancake so I won't have much to compare it to.

[sgarrity]

I'd like to get a Poe but it looks like Andy isn't taking orders for awhile. His work is stunning!

[soliver]

I'd like to get a Poe .... His work is stunning!

I agree his work is quite nice,... someone posted pics recently of a custom Scout build that Andy was doing for them (Cocobolo back and sides I believe) and it was quite lovely!

I am also very impressed by what I've seen and heard of Terry's work as well,

[Joey Anchors]

Terry is building me an A/N style pancake as we speak. I'll report back when I get it. Although I've never played a Flatiron pancake so I won't have much to compare it to.

Nice! How far along is it until you get it?

[Joey Anchors]

I'm having a custom five string A/N made by Terry and all I can say is he is a pleasure to work with, and does amazing work!

[soliver]

3 words: Sawchyn Beaver Tail.*

bratsche

*As usual, I speak more for mandolas than mandolins...

Those are nice looking! https://sawchyn.com/index.php/mandol...tail-mandolin#

[CES]

The Flatirons have flat boards, unless they've been modified by previous owners...love mine, but am considering having the FB radiused...

[bratsche]

Those are nice looking! https://sawchyn.com/index.php/mandol...tail-mandolin#

And they have radiused ebony fretboards. My Beaver Tail mandola is the deluxe version, with a sunburst finish. It can be seen in the second row of photos here. I got it pre-owned from someone in the classifieds here, but it was many years back. It's a keeper, though.

bratsche

[Bob Clark]

Love my Crystal Forest! I fully agree with the notion that flat tops give a lot of value for the buck. I haven't played a wide range of them, but as I said, I love my Crystal Forest.

I'm not a great fan of the so-called shoot outs. There is too much 'individuality' in these little instruments to think one instrument can represent the Luthier's whole output. I also think we Cafe denizens might obsess a bit over finding the 'best' instrument, since no 'best' actually exists. Find one you love and play it, play it, play it!

That said, enjoy your search. As Harry Chapin said, "It's the goin', not the gettin' there that's good."

Best wishes,

Bob

[soliver]

Very well said Bob, thanks for that!

[jim simpson]

Funny reading this thread today as I came home today with an Army Navy model that seems so nice playing and sound wise. The seller is sending me the missing tailpiece cover.

I used to own a Flatiron mandola and it too played nicely and had a bigger sound than it's appearance would suggest.

[Stevo75]

Nice! How far along is it until you get it?

I'm guessing a couple months still. I know it is not yet assembled but he has the body and the neck each separately close to being complete.

[fatt-dad]

Just a photo for reference.



f-d

[soliver]

Can anyone speak to the Morris flat tops?

[Mike Scott]

I had a Morris flat top that was cedar over maple. I also once owned a Big Muddy that was spruce over walnut. Both sounded different but good. The Morris was louder and more well rounded. I traded it back to Sonny for an A4 made out of the same woods. I think the flat top may have had very slightly better tone. Fit, finish and playability on both are/were excellent. I am a big fan of his mandolins plus he is great to deal with. Highly recommended. NFI

[Charles E.]

Is this the Flatiron you mentioned in your first post?

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/112061#112061

If so it looks pretty nice.

[Charlie Bernstein]

And don't forget the Earnesto!

[ollaimh]

3 words: Sawchyn Beaver Tail.*

bratsche

*As usual, I speak more for mandolas than mandolins...

sawchyns beaver tails are the best flat tops i have ever played. i also like the plain old flatirons a lot. they used to be cheap. 300-400 bucks but they seem to get higher prices now. i have played two ginson army navy mandolins. one was fantastic the other dead. the good one was rode hard and looked beat but sang the nice looking one was the dead one.