The so-called "compensated" bridge

[nkforster]

To understand why fretted instruments don't play in tune you might want to read THIS article. It isn't long.

Yes, we can send a man to the moon, but we can't as yet defy the laws of physics, which is what you'd need to do to make a stringed fretted instrument play perfectly in tune all over the neck. If you think your instrument does play perfectly in tune, you need to read the article!

The best we can do is achieve perfect equal temperament, and that requires a compensated nut as well as a compensated saddle. Both of which can be done. And perfect strings. Which don't exist. Mandolins are high tension little beasts so the errors are not as bad as they are on guitars. So a compensated saddle is all you really need to get "close enough for jazz" as they say.

In the end, no matter how much you spend, or who makes it, all you can do is get close to equal temperament, then live with the compromise and get on with the music.

As has probably been mentioned (I've not read the whole thread) off the shelf mandolin bridges tend to be over compensated. You can always get your local luthier to make one closer to how it should be.

Nigel
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/

[Astro]

As for playing music, my mando is at least as compensated as I am.

[Austin Bob]

I have normal gauge strings and low action and intonate up the neck just fine. You need not play a violin, but maybe you need a different luthier. I know nothing plays in tune perfectly, even a piano is tuned so the choruses of strings are not the same. My mandolin plays very well in tune and I play up the neck a lot. It takes some constant adjustments, but I carry a gauge for action adjustments and do it often. If I keep my string height above the frets the same and the instrument is intonated well it stays intoanted well. Humidity and temp changes may change your action and if you don't compensate regularly then you won't be intonated correctly. Once setup doesn't mean it will stay there, it is a constant thing checking and adjusting, but it is very much worth the effort.

Yeah, I agree with your point that if it is well set up, it will play just fine. But still, there will be some notes in any scale that are just slightly off. Thirty years ago, it bothered me a whole lot more than it does today with my tired old ears.

[Stevo75]

The intonation problems caused by my playing far exceed the imperfect intonation inherent in my instrument, bridge, setup, etc. In other words, I don't always fret perfectly, especially up the neck (probably no one does except the top tier), and so that would cause more of an intonation problem than what's caused by imperfect bridge compensation.

I was talking to another mandolin player around here (one far better than myself) and he mentioned he plays an old Loar. I said, "don't those have intonation problems because the frets are not in the right place?" This has something to do with one of the jigs used by Gibson and has been discussed on this forum many times (I don't know the details). It is why Chris Thile said the fingerboard needed to be replaced on his Loar. Anyhow, what he said got me thinking. He said, "yeah that's true, but I've just learned to adjust over the years". He intentionally, probably subconsciously by now, frets differently in different spots to correct the intonation problems on the fly as he's playing. He has adjusted his playing to the instrument. He did admit that it messes up his playing when he plays a different instrument that doesn't have the same issues.

So this thread got me thinking, if I can mess up perfect intonation due to my imperfect playing, an expert mandolinist could learn to fret differently in different spots on the fretboard to correct imperfect intonation - whether it happens consciously or subconsciously. I have started paying attention to whether or not I am pulling the strings out of tune when I'm fretting. After a while, if we are good enough (I am not), and have a good enough ear (I don't), our playing would have near perfect intonation because it is all within the control of our fingers (probably all subconsciously after a while).

Anyway, I just thought that was an interesting idea. Not trying to make any points about how a mandolin is set up or how bridge compensation is done.

[Timbofood]

I thought I was doing well if I could get the blasted thing in tune in the first place! The rest of the notes are on their own!

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Nigel Forster - "You can always get your local luthier to make one closer to how it should be." That possibly points to the fact that all the folks who've had CA bridges fitted by Steve Smith have come away smiling = 'custom fit & compensation',as per my own Ellis.

Maybe more mandolin owners would have a smile on their faces if they had the same done by their luthiers - it's something that seems somewhat overlooked. Most folk take it for granted that their bridges are as good as they can be - maybe 'not quite' ?.

Thanks for a very understandable article Nigel. It explained exactly what i've know for years,having had it explained to me by a very fine amateur concert violinist years ago. He explained about 'frets' & the problems thereof !,
Ivan

[CarlM]

You should read this thread closely about individually adjustable bridges.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...s-Gibson-160-E

I have a Yamaha which had an individually adjustable bridge kind of after the Gibson pattern. It was a mess and caused the top to belly and fail. I replaced it with a solid bridge after fixing the top. Someone might come up with a brilliant idea someday but bridges made like an electric guitar have too many parts, are too fragile and interfere with acoustic tone. My own feeling is that a few hours playing on the strings and there is enough wear, oil and oxidation to undo any hyper perfection in the compensation. On guitar bridges, careful shaping with a file can get you as close to correct as the little screws.


At a certain point, as has been alluded to, the tempering to the notes in the scale that builds in out of tuneness in all music exceeds any improvement in compensation. It should also be pointed out that just intonation, perfect by the numbers becomes more and more out of tune as you go around the circle of fifths. No one, not vocalists or fiddlers or unfretted instruments can play all keys perfectly in tune because it is built into the design of the scales. The reason for the tempering schemes is that just intonation plays in tune only in a few keys. There is no avoiding scales being out of tune if you do the math. It is only a choice of which keys and how much.