New To Mandolins

[Spock89]

Hello gals and guys... I am (as the title suggests) new to the forum. I am 28 years old and started playing guitar when I was twelve.. so 15 years of guitar going on 16 pretty soon. I recently decided it was time to explore something new. I always loved the sound of a mandolin... bluegrass, irish, celtic, rock, medieval.. no matter as it's always a very cool instrument to hear someone pick on. So it was a no brainer to go with picking up the mandolin next.

Now, I am looking for help on picking out a mando... what do I look for? What names/brands to stay away from? What names/brands are good?(I know Kentucky and The Loar... I also noticed Washburn and Oscar Schmidt get a lot more respect in the mando world than they do in the guitar world... I personally wont take a second glance at a guitar with the name Oscar Schmidt on it, and just out of years of that built up aversion.. I probably couldnt consider it as an option for a mando either lol.). Sure signs of a bad mandolin? Other need to knows?

I keep seeing people mention having a new mandolin professionally set up... Now as someone who has been tinkering with guitars for a lot of years... I have become fairly well acquainted with getting the action low and smooth. And I take pride in how well I can set up a guitar. I've set guitars up for friends. I can set up any guitar with any bridge(minus fixed bridges) and yes that includes a floating bridge which is what is on most(all?) Mandolins) So... I'm a little more than decent at it. I'm no luthier.. I'm no professional. Just a guy who's got a lot of hands on experience. But in the guitar world you dont really see people recommending to fork out extra money to have a new guitar set up. Even though it can make a massive difference... it really just isnt a goto piece of advice. So why does it seem to be in the mandolin world? And why does one need to have a professional do it, rather than tinkering and figuring it out yourself? Is it mainly due to the floating bridge and getting it positioned again correctly? Or is it something I dont realize? I have to say, after thoroughly looking them over at the music shop and in pictures I dont see much of anything that I would have an issue setting up. Except for maybe if the truss rod needs adjusting.. then that is something I wouldnt do. But then again I dont buy anything with a bowed or twisted neck.

This is probably a dumb question lol... Do they use different sizes of frets on mandolins? On a guitar the bigger "jumbo" frets sure play a lot smoother and are way easier on your fingers. Where as small frets have a tendency to just be unpleasant all the way around.. is this something I need to watch out for on a mandolin?

Acoustic vs acoustic electric? On guitars there is no difference in sound (unplugged obviously). But with the mandolin being so small, do the electronics hinder the vibration throughout the body? Seems to me a big ol pickup, pots, and input jack being screwed into that little body would really put a damper on sound. Does it?

Now my budget at the moment is... cheap lol. Or to put it better, as cheap as I can pick a decent one up for. Obviously I'm just learning and dont want to spend $1,000+ getting a good one when I might decide its not for me, but I also dont want a cheap p.o.s. to be the cause of that decision. I would like to stay under $300. And I do not mind buying used at all.. kind of prefer it. You get more for your money and people have usually worked out any surprises that quality control at the factory might have overlooked. What are your recommendations?

Here are a few I have in mind after researching:

Kentucky KM-150
Gretsch New Yorker
Ibanez M510-DVS

What are your thoughts on these?

These I can afford brand new. Its kind of hard to find out what I might find in the same price range that is used. For instance there is a used Kentucky KM-380 on craigslist here the guy wants $300 for. I dont really know how that one compares to a cheaper one though.. say like the KM-150. If the KM-380 is a little prettier but more or less sounds and plays the same... I'd prefer to save the money and get the KM-150.

And thanks for reading my long drawn out first post lol.

[William Smith]

I'd recommend a used eastman/kentucky, something of the like with solid woods! Spruce top, maple neck,back,sides. A models will be cheaper and these are great starter mandolins there are websites on the cafe/adds on the cafe/check out gbase/reverb and even evilbay! There are loads of em out there and yes you can put larger type frets on a mando board-I have em on my old Gibson's! Get one with ware and tare and it'll be cheaper yet, set-up is fairly easy and it sounds you can do a guitar pretty well, mandolins are a bit different though, you really want spot on intonation or you'll have less "fun"

[jhowell]

Welcome to the forum! From your list I would choose the km-150 hands down. Get it from any of this site's sponsors and you will get a pro setup thrown in. Great folks here and great information. Have fun picking!

[MikeZito]

First off - WELCOME!

Although I have not had any direct experience with the Gretsch or the Ibanez, the general consensus that I have gotten in my investigation of both instruments is that the Ibanez is pretty good (I am still waiting for one to show up at the local shop so I can try it out) - and the Gretsch is pretty bad . . . and Kentucky is rarely spoken negatively about among the mandolin folks around here.

Good luck - and keep us updated!

[Randi Gormley]

As for set up, you can certainly do one yourself. Rob Meldrum will send you his setup guide for free if you email him and let him know you want one. I think you put 'mandolin setup' in the subject line, but if you do a quick search on the café, you'll find the actual directions.

Usual advice to a guitarist moving to mandolin: the mandolin is an instrument in itself. it is not a "little guitar" or a "little guitar unsidedown" or other variations on the theme. that means that everything from left hand position to how you pluck the creature to how often you change strings to how you hold the instrument in your lap/standing with a strap is different from guitar. Trying to use guitar technique will limit your progress at best and could strain your tendons and muscles at worst. On the other hand, you've got a great experience ahead of you and lots of fantastic music ahead with the mandolin. Check out the Youtube video that Mike Marshall has on the basics of holding the mandolin and do a search on the café for other tales of guitarists making the switch. There you'll find out about fret size (it depends), neck width (all personal preference), strings, picks, acoustic vs electric, pickup vs mic and why mandolins cost so much more than guitars of comparable quality (I think there's a 2-for-1 ratio, so a $300 mandolin is comparable to a $150 guitar -- but I may be mistaken). For a quick guide, though, your fretting hand fingers should NOT be perpendicular to the neck; they need to be angled more like a fiddle/violin. Resting the neck on the palm of your hand is bad mandolin technique; thumb position is different too.

Anyway, welcome to the café and to the mandolin! you'll have a great time!

[Mandoplumb]

To answer one of your questions, a set up on a mandolin is much more critical than a guitar because (1) shorter scale (2) strings under more tension, (3) double strings. A poorly set up mandolin is almost impossible to play,even to someone used to string instruments. A guitar, while more enjoyable set up properly, is more forgivable than mandolin. If you can set up a guitar, you can set up a mandolin, you just need to know specks. Get Robs book and go for it. Play a mandolin you Know is set properly and experiment, within those specks, to make yours play like you want it to. I always set mine up myself because I know how I want it

[CES]

Get a KM-150 or Eastman 305, can't really go wrong with either, IMO. Setup is crucial because of the double courses, shorter scale, and higher tension. Errors in this regard tend to be amplified on mandos compared to guitars. Rob's ebook has some excellent info, and frets.com also has some great advice.

There are certainly some fans of Gretsch and Ibanez, and they can be made playable, but the ones I've played (which is admittedly a small sample size if probably 3 or less of each) couldn't touch a newer KM 150 or Eastman 305 in tone. The Loar and J Bovier also have some nice entry level offerings. Good luck, and welcome to the obsession!

[dlbrandt]

I am also new to mandolin. I went with the km-150 from one of the cafe sponsors. The set up was awesome out if the box. So far, I am satisfied as a beginner but the classifieds on the cafe make it difficult not to buy another.

Happy playing

[Spock89]

Hey, thanks for the great replies everyone! That makes sense on the shorter scale being touchier. I'll definitely check out Rob's ebook when I get a mando if it isnt set up already. Seems the best choice is the KM-150. Can you guys recommend any used options in the same price range that would be a better buy for the money?

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . I keep seeing people mention having a new mandolin professionally set up... . . . But in the guitar world you dont really see people recommending to fork out extra money to have a new guitar set up. . . .

Sure you do. I always have mine professionally set up, and I've been playing guitar since '68. Why do a half-assed job (or worse, damage the instrument), when I can pay someone who knows how to do it right?

I just paid $1,200 for a good used mando. Now I'm saving up for a pro set-up. Doing a hack job on an instrument I just paid that much money for would be just plain stupid.

[sbhikes]

I went to a shop that had a ton of mandolins I could try out. You might ask around locally and see if there's one within driving distance. I only had to drive 2 hours one way. I thought I might have to drive about 6 hours one way until someone told me about the one 2 hours away. I called up the shop before I went to ask how many mandolins they actually had so the drive wouldn't be wasted.

Being able to try them all out helped. I tried them "blind", meaning I didn't look at price tags, I didn't really care about body style (although I preferred a-style), and I didn't care about brand name. I had a hard time choosing one, so once I narrowed it down to a few, I asked someone to play them for me so I could stand at a distance and hear what it sounded like to listen. I ended up with an f-style, The Loar brand. I guess people here scoff at it, but I really liked the way it sounded. The only thing I don't like about it is that it's heavy over all, it's neck heavy and it's too shiny. But it sounds good and draws a lot of attention when I'm busking. Seems people in Southern California have never seen an f-style mandolin. They tend to be quite fascinated.

[Spock89]

Sure you do. I always have mine professionally set up, and I've been playing guitar since '68. Why do a half-assed job (or worse, damage the instrument), when I can pay someone who knows how to do it right?

I just paid $1,200 for a good used mando. Now I'm saving up for a pro set-up. Doing a hack job on an instrument I just paid that much money for would be just plain stupid.

Eh, no.. not really. If someone buys a Squire, mexican fender strat, epiphone, oscar schmidt, or other low end guitar... which is almost always where people start learning.. people dont really tell them to go waste money paying a tech to set up what is eventually going to end up sold to the next beginner for $75 on craigslist. That would be a waste of money and would probably cost more than the guitar itself. I would actually advise against it. When studying mandolins.. this is often the first thing people advise regardless of quality or value of the mandolin.

Now sure.. Buy high dollar guitar that you plan to keep for some years.. and you dont know what you're doing... Dont care to learn or try... then it might be worth paying someone to do. And there is very little in terms of setting up a guitar that will damage it. Also assuming you will do a "hack job" just because you dont have formal training(or whatever the reason) is first off a relative opinion and its like saying you'll do a hack job painting a wall even though you know full well you'd be more than happy with it. But in my opinion if you're gonna pay someone to set up your guitar, you may as well pay them to tune it as well.. might see if they'll adjust the seat and steering wheel in your car for an extra $20 while you're at it. Setting up a guitar is a relative thing... you're paying someone else to put it where they like it or where they think you'll like it. Do it yourself and you can tinker with it til you're thrilled.

Now this is with a guitar. I dont know my ass from a hole in the ground on mandolin set up, which is why I asked lol.

[Br1ck]

If you already do setup, you should have no trouble with setting up a mandolin, with one caveat, that being almost all lower cost mandolins benefit from a fret leveling. It's not rocket science, but fret crowning files come in handy. Of course the great Frank Ford doesn't use them so what do I know?

The brands people seem to like are The Loar, Kentucky, and Eastman. Buying used, you should be able to get at least a step up, like an MD 505 used for the cost of a new MD 305. Some dealers get blems from time to time. Blems are minor and a great value. But really, the KM 150 is a great start. Pay attention though. You might not like flat fingerboards, but at this point you can start with anything that is solid wood.

[allenhopkins]

The main reason "mandolin set-up" is recommended uniformly is the "floating" bridge, adjustable for both placement and height. You profess yourself experienced in setting up guitars (arch-tops, I presume) with floating bridges, so hey, go wild, set up your mandolin yourself. The other niceties, like possible truss rod adjustment for proper neck relief, nut slots depth and profile, bridge saddle notches etc., are not as common issues, and in most cases you should be OK without availing yourself of pro services, or of a set-up manual such as "robster" Meldrum makes available here on the Cafe.

As to what mandolin to buy, the standard advices are:

1. All solid woods, no plywood; check the instrument specs, and if they don't say "solid," it's plywood.

2. Sounds like you're looking at "carved" top, f-hole instruments, which are pretty much standard for bluegrass, but work for other music styles as well. If so, look at the specs and see if the top and back are described as "carved"; if not, they're probably heat-pressed into a curvature that simulates carving. In general, carved is better, and hand-carved better still.

3. The three mandolins you list are all A-style (teardrop shape), which is cost-effective as compared to the F-style with the scroll and body points. F-style mandolins have a very attractive silhouette, but the additional woodworking involved makes them significantly pricier, with no consensus that they sound better or play easier.

4. Of the mandolins you mention, the Ibanez is plywood -- not so good. The Gretsch is solid wood, but its heat-pressed mahogany top is sorta "non-standard," since most mandolins have spruce tops. Also, it isn't carved. The Kentucky KM-150 is the "conventional Cafe wisdom" for a starter mandolin: all solid woods, hand-carved (or at least the finish carving by hand) top and back, pretty consistent quality. You'll get quite a few recommendations for the Kentucky KM-150.

5. I always recommend hands-on comparison among the mandolins you consider, but that's not always feasible, unless you have a well-stocked acoustic dealer nearby. If you think you know what you're doing -- and you don't seem to lack confidence -- you can get into the used market and get a better model for the same price. The Kentucky KM-380 you're looking at is a discontinued model, but it's fancier than the KM-150, and is also solid carved woods, with more inlay, binding etc. I don't see it being a big step up over the KM-150, otherwise, but you might like it better.

Good luck. Once you do your own set-up, it wouldn't hurt to have a pro at least check it, but if you really know what you're doing, you should be OK self-setting-up.

[Spock89]

The main reason "mandolin set-up" is recommended uniformly is the "floating" bridge, adjustable for both placement and height. You profess yourself experienced in setting up guitars (arch-tops, I presume) with floating bridges, so hey, go wild, set up your mandolin yourself. The other niceties, like possible truss rod adjustment for proper neck relief, nut slots depth and profile, bridge saddle notches etc., are not as common issues, and in most cases you should be OK without availing yourself of pro services, or of a set-up manual such as "robster" Meldrum makes available here on the Cafe.

As to what mandolin to buy, the standard advices are:

1. All solid woods, no plywood; check the instrument specs, and if they don't say "solid," it's plywood.

2. Sounds like you're looking at "carved" top, f-hole instruments, which are pretty much standard for bluegrass, but work for other music styles as well. If so, look at the specs and see if the top and back are described as "carved"; if not, they're probably heat-pressed into a curvature that simulates carving. In general, carved is better, and hand-carved better still.

3. The three mandolins you list are all A-style (teardrop shape), which is cost-effective as compared to the F-style with the scroll and body points. F-style mandolins have a very attractive silhouette, but the additional woodworking involved makes them significantly pricier, with no consensus that they sound better or play easier.

4. Of the mandolins you mention, the Ibanez is plywood -- not so good. The Gretsch is solid wood, but its heat-pressed mahogany top is sorta "non-standard," since most mandolins have spruce tops. Also, it isn't carved. The Kentucky KM-150 is the "conventional Cafe wisdom" for a starter mandolin: all solid woods, hand-carved (or at least the finish carving by hand) top and back, pretty consistent quality. You'll get quite a few recommendations for the Kentucky KM-150.

5. I always recommend hands-on comparison among the mandolins you consider, but that's not always feasible, unless you have a well-stocked acoustic dealer nearby. If you think you know what you're doing -- and you don't seem to lack confidence -- you can get into the used market and get a better model for the same price. The Kentucky KM-380 you're looking at is a discontinued model, but it's fancier than the KM-150, and is also solid carved woods, with more inlay, binding etc. I don't see it being a big step up over the KM-150, otherwise, but you might like it better.

Good luck. Once you do your own set-up, it wouldn't hurt to have a pro at least check it, but if you really know what you're doing, you should be OK self-setting-up.

Great information thanks. I definitely plan on doing a boat load of studying before I decide to do it myself or pay someone else. I had a feeling it might be due to the floating bridge. Which seems scary but really is nothin... just measure it and set it according to specs.. as long as you dont get stupid with sanding it off you can always adjust it up to accomodate as well as reposition if you mess up your measurments or let it slide.. I just dont mess with anything that is either permanent and an expensive fix should I break it.. or anything that can eventually cause an issue.. such as adjusting the truss rod. And if its glued.. it stays glued lol. But being unfamiliar with mandos I was curious why its a goto recommendation and why a professional has to do it. I didnt know if that requires any super awesome luthier magic that a guitar doesnt. A guitar is pretty much all trial and error. Adjust something til you like it... go too far? No biggy, go back a bit. And most of what is a permanent adjustment such as sanding down the nut... is a cheap replacement. But i understand now, that a mandolin is extremely touchy in adjustment.. where as a guitar can have the action a mile high, pickups bottomed out, etc.. chances are its still gonna playable.. maybe not pleasant. But playable. A mandolin doesnt have that luxury due to tighter string tension and a much shorter scale.. so finding the sweet spots is a challenge. Is that correct?

[Ron McMillan]

1. The Loar, Kentucky and Eastman have dedicated workshops making only their instruments.
2. As far as I understand it, almost all the other budget brands like Ibanez, Barnes & Mullins, Oscar Schmidt, Washburn, Fender, etc., are produced in bulk by factories and branded for whoever is that week's client buyer. That is why they are generally of inferior quality.
3. Set-up is neither rocket science nor dark art. With a little attention to good sources of set-up information (Frank Ford's Frets.com website is by far the best out there), you should be fine.
4. Buy, set up and start playing

[allenhopkins]

...a mandolin is extremely touchy in adjustment.. where as a guitar can have the action a mile high, pickups bottomed out, etc.. chances are its still gonna playable.. maybe not pleasant. But playable. A mandolin doesnt have that luxury due to tighter string tension and a much shorter scale.. so finding the sweet spots is a challenge. Is that correct?

Sorta accurate. I couldn't play a guitar with "mile high" action, and actually, with its larger neck and more widely separated frets, a badly set up guitar can be worse than a mandolin. But the shorter scale of a mandolin means that bridge placement has to be even more exact than on an arch-top, floating bridge guitar, and the higher-tension, doubled strings do make high action pretty uncomfortable. A mandolin with high action may sound more out-of-tune than a similar guitar, because the "stretching" effect of fretting high-action strings can be accentuated by their shorter scale. Many musicians going from guitar to mandolin experience a "break-in" period where the higher-tension, doubled strings fight them more than the guitar strings they're used to.

I started on banjo, went to guitar, then mandolin. Learning these three instruments, I found I had to develop distinct and different approaches in order to make progress and reach the goals I wanted to on each -- not that I'm ever satisfied that I've attained them! I usually get at least advice from a pro before tweaking my set-ups substantially. You may find that trying different string brands and gauges may lead you to change set-up somewhat.

As someone stated above, the mandolin is a different instrument from a guitar, and needs to be approached differently. Just because it has strings and frets, doesn't imply that guitar techniques are readily transferable. I'm sure you recognize that, from even limited exposure to the mandolin. Good to have confidence, also good to "know what you don't know." Wish you luck.

[Spock89]

Sorta accurate. I couldn't play a guitar with "mile high" action, and actually, with its larger neck and more widely separated frets, a badly set up guitar can be worse than a mandolin. But the shorter scale of a mandolin means that bridge placement has to be even more exact than on an arch-top, floating bridge guitar, and the higher-tension, doubled strings do make high action pretty uncomfortable. A mandolin with high action may sound more out-of-tune than a similar guitar, because the "stretching" effect of fretting high-action strings can be accentuated by their shorter scale. Many musicians going from guitar to mandolin experience a "break-in" period where the higher-tension, doubled strings fight them more than the guitar strings they're used to.

I started on banjo, went to guitar, then mandolin. Learning these three instruments, I found I had to develop distinct and different approaches in order to make progress and reach the goals I wanted to on each -- not that I'm ever satisfied that I've attained them! I usually get at least advice from a pro before tweaking my set-ups substantially. You may find that trying different string brands and gauges may lead you to change set-up somewhat.

As someone stated above, the mandolin is a different instrument from a guitar, and needs to be approached differently. Just because it has strings and frets, doesn't imply that guitar techniques are readily transferable. I'm sure you recognize that, from even limited exposure to the mandolin. Good to have confidence, also good to "know what you don't know." Wish you luck.

Definitely always good to know what you dont. Why I'm here lol. And yes I certainly understand that a mandolin isnt a guitar and I fully expect an entirely different beast all together.. especially when learning to play. Speaking of banjo... that is the only other stringed instrument I ever tried out. Mom and dad got a nice one at an auction real cheap when I was 14. I was still pretty novice with guitar and still very much practicing daily and learning daily. It turned out to be too much learning those finger rolls, chords, and scales for the banjo and retaining all I was just getting down on the guitar. Gave up on the banjo and sold it. I came to the conclusion it just wasnt versatile enough or "free" enough for me and really didnt care for playing it as much as a guitar. Anyways, thanks fir all the great info.

[Mandoplumb]

Spock89, don't mean to be rude but you can't set a floating bridge for proper intonation with a ruler. You're right it's not rocket science but it depends more on sound and pitch than spec's and measurement. Having said that you can do it and do it more to your liking than a professional. Just do the research and know what you are striving for.

[Korwen]

Howdy!

I recently went through your experience purchasing my first mandolin, and I ended up going with a good deal on a used Eastman and couldn't be happier!

I went through a several month process of playing as many of the "entry level" mandolins as I could get my hands on, and if possible I'd recommend you do the same. I played many Eastman, Kentucky and The Loar mandolins and my personal favorite was the Eastmans - but they were all excellent instruments!

I don't think you could go wrong with an all solid wood from those makers, and the difference would be down to personal preference. Some things I looked for were differences in construction. The Loar had a very different feeling neck, which wasn't wholly unpleasant, and the Eastman had a radiused fingerboard which I enjoyed. I also liked the look of no pick guard on the instrument and the classic finish as opposed to a sunburst.

Either way, if you did end up getting a KM-150 that was well set up, you won't go wrong. My local shop was kind enough to look over my mandolin, and gave me some tips on how to adjust it. I ended up adjusting the truss rod a bit to remove some neck relief and lowering the action a bit at the bridge after putting on some new strings, and it made a world of difference! My two cents are that if you got one from a MandolinCafe sponsor known for excellent setups you would be putting yourself in an excellent position to best enjoy your new instrument.

Good luck, have fun!

[Randi Gormley]

If you are looking for a suggestion for used, there's always the strad-o-lin, which is much more mandolin than the price point would suggest. just to add that to the mix.

[Denny Gies]

Welcome to our wild, wacky world. I agree the Kentucky would be a good starter mandolin. Make sure, when you decide on one, you get a good set up included with the purchase. Good luck and have fun.

[JeffD]

In general, you can expect a mandolin to cost about twice a guitar of comparable quality. So if you are familiar with "how much" guitar you can get with, say $500, a comparable quality mandolin will come in at roughly $1000. Of course there are exceptions and details, but as far as setting expectations...

As a general statement I think it is fair to say that acoustic mandolins sold with on board electronics are guitar player bait, meant to lure guitarists over, as manufacturer installed electrics is much more part of guitar culture than mandolin culture, in my experience. It might well be better to get the best all acoustic mandolin you can afford, and then get the quality electrics you want installed.

I see that Rob Meldrum has been mentioned for learning the set up.

Lastly, can I recommend a money saving strategy. If you are not sure if the mandolin is for you, try borrowing or renting one for a month. If its not for you, you saved most of your budget. If it is for you, you can justify a higher budget.

Welcome.