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Thread: When is a "mandolin" . . .

  1. #26
    Gadfly Dr H's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    @Explorer: Couldn't help but notice this item in your sig: "...six-course, unison-tuned 12-string Ovation mandophone/extended cittern in CGDAEB Full Fifths Tuning..."

    I'm very curious: just how high is that "B" course, and what in god's name are you using to string it with?

    In order to get a full-fifths tuning on my classical guitar, I had to go to 0.022 monofilament fishing leader for the high B; no guitar string I found would support that pitch. Even the leader only lasts about 2-3 weeks, but it does work.
    Dr H
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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr H View Post
    Another good point, and one I hadn't considered.

    Of course there are guitars with bridges under compression, too -- arch tops, for example, and my Portuguese viola da Terceira.
    ...and violins etc. But for me if it's going to sit in my mandolin mental box it needs that, which doesn't preclude other instruments using the same technology. However that then gets totally undermined by the the undeniably mandolinny Brescian & Lombardian instruments, which I happily include in my mental happy mandolin space. But I suppose I'm not too fussed about exact definitions because I play across so many instrument families I just need to know which room to leave them in so I can find them when I need them.

    Specifically with the mandoloncello/ liuto cantabile thing I do have issues with the guitar bodied ones.
    Their sustain is just too washy for my ear, too much muddying going on, so they go in my "somebody's been mucking about with the guitar again" category.
    But then the flat-top & carved top A styles etc never seem to commit enough front to back depth to the instrument and come up lacking a lot of balance across the courses, always disappointing once I really settle in to explore what they can deliver.
    The big bowl-backed 'cellos come closest to my ideal for these in terms of enough punchy sustain without letting it get to blurred & I think that's where my €10k will go (once it's saved up. )
    Eoin



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  4. #28

    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr H View Post
    @Explorer: Couldn't help but notice this item in your sig: "...six-course, unison-tuned 12-string Ovation mandophone/extended cittern in CGDAEB Full Fifths Tuning..."

    I'm very curious: just how high is that "B" course, and what in god's name are you using to string it with?

    In order to get a full-fifths tuning on my classical guitar, I had to go to 0.022 monofilament fishing leader for the high B; no guitar string I found would support that pitch. Even the leader only lasts about 2-3 weeks, but it does work.
    Here's the topic where I give all the information. Cheers!

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...-my-experiment
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  5. #29

    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    A mandolin is a mandolin when it's a mandolin. When it's not, its something else trying to be like a mandolin. This is my fully uninformed opinion.

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  7. #30
    Registered User Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr H View Post
    What I'm interested in is how other mandolinists think of their instrument. What is a "mandolin" to you? Is there some vital feature without which you would start to think "hmm... this thing has mandolin qualities, but it isn't really a mandolin" ?
    Well for me it's basically a violin with longer scale length that you pluck rather than bow. The 'dark side' of the violin, if you will
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  8. #31
    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by red7flag View Post
    I have a GOM. First of all, it was never intended to be played like guitar. It has a carved top with F holes. It plays exactly the same as any OM I have played. I sounds amazing and not at all like a guitar except for the register it is played in. The only reason I asked Andrew Mowry to make a GOM instead of a OM is how much nicer the guitar shape feels when playing sitting down. So despite the shape, it has all the qualities of a OM, not a guitar.
    I feel exactly the same way. I have a 3/4 size guitar that I converted into a octave mandolin. It certainly isn't as good as anything Andrew Mowrey would build, but it sounds nice and it sounds just like a OM should sound. Meaning, it sounds nothing like the guitar that it once was. When I play it, no one would mistake it for a guitar because it sounds like a octave mandolin. Its' scale length, double courses, and tuning would, in my mind, certainly put it in the octave mandolin family, no matter the shape.

    Mandocello, in my opinion, would be much more guitar like than a octave mandolin. But even that is still part of the mandolin family, just as the cello is part of the violin family.
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  9. #32

    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    I have one of those gold tone "mandocellos" that some would call a strangely tuned archtop guitar.

    Personally I have no idea where to rate it. It certainly doesn't sound quite like a guitar, but I'm not sure it sounds too much like a mandolin either. I also have no idea what combination of lack of playing skill and lack of experience with nice traditional lower voiced mandolin family instruments is contributing to this though.

    All I can say is that it plays a bit like a mandolin and sounds nice, and when it comes down to it that's good enough for me.

  10. #33
    Gadfly Dr H's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    Here's the topic where I give all the information. Cheers!

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...-my-experiment
    Hmm... custom made strings, eh? Figures.
    I've never gotten a conventional steel string to go higher than an A4 on a standard scale guitar, and they don't last long at that pitch. You can get 0.007's in a lot of places, these days, but 0.006 is pushing it.

    I had given up trying to go all fifths on steel strings. What convinced me to try it with nylon was getting involved with charango. There are standard charango string sets these days, but doing a little historical research on the instrument turned up the fact that Andean Indians used to frequently string them with fishing line.

    Then I got a hualaycho -- a little bitty charango that's supposed to be, I was told, tuned a fourth or fifth (depending on whether you're in Bolivia or Argentina) above the charango. If you go a fifth above, that puts a few B5's in there, which is pretty high even on a short-scaled instrument. I couldn't get above G# on the metal strings they sent with the instrument, so I switched to nylon; that got me to A, but not to B.

    One day I happened to be walking through the fishing section in a sporting goods shop and was intrigued to find that monofilament fishing line came in a surprisingly (to me) wide variety of very specific gauges. So I put all my research together, bought a roll of every gauge monofilament they had, and started experimenting. It worked, and sounded pretty much like the hualaychos I heard on recordings.

    Next thing you know, I was staring at the hualaycho, and the pile of monofilament spools, and eyeing my classical guitar with evil intent.

    I did some tension calculations, and found that theoretically a 0.018 line should get me to B4. It did, but it had to be retuned every 10 minutes, and it snapped after a day or so. Lighter gauge line was hit or miss as to whether it would break before I hit B, so I went heavier. 0.020 worked, and lasted through almost two weeks of daily tuning and playing. So I took a chance and went to 0.022 -- interestingly, the heavier string worked better. It held pitch longer, and I've had them on there for a month or more without breaking. That started kind of a trend for me -- I went out and bought a bunch of cheapo classical guitars, and strung them up in all manner of ridiculous tunings. Big fun.

    Your info might start me up all over again with steel strings.

    But I dunno... those 0.006s are up to $8/string now, whereas, for $3 I can buy a 250 feet spool of 0.022 monofilament, which I figure will get me through about 100 string changes. So maybe I'll stick with nylon, and save up for a non-guitar-shaped mandocello, instead.
    Dr H
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  12. #34
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    Interesting range of views here, so here's another $.02 opinion.

    From my perspective, an octave mandolin is something that looked and sounded like a mandolin, before it was scaled up in size and scale length. Otherwise, why call it a mandolin at all?

    Instruments that fit this viewpoint would include archtop "Gibsons on Steroids" like the Weber OM I play, and the "Celtic mandolins on Steroids" like the various OMs based on teardrop shapes and flat tops. It would cover scaled-up Italian bowlbacks, although outside of some big mandocellos I don't think there are too many OMs in that style.

    But a guitar body? When I see guitar body tuned GDAE in double courses, I see an outside approach, often based on reducing cost and re-purposing existing tooling, or retrofitting an instrument.

    I can't help it. A GBOM didn't start as a tiny guitar-shaped body that sounded like a mandolin before it was scaled up. So I just have trouble thinking of them as octave mandolins, regardless of how they're marketed. That's just me, your mileage may vary etc.

  13. #35
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    Taking foldedpath's viewpoint expressed above - what 'makes a mandolin a mandolin' ??. Is it the body shape or the number of strings / tuning ?.

    If we look at the Violin family - the mandolin family's close relatives, then they all have a similar body shape - one is simply a larger version of the other with the appropriately lower tuning = totally understandable. When we come to the mandolin family 'proper',we have the mandolin & the mandola,with the mandola being a larger version of the mandolin - thus basically being a violin/viola equivalent. After that, we then come to the 'Octave' instruments,which don't have a violin family equivalent. Despite there being quite a few varations on the body shape of 'octaves',i feel that they are a logical & 'true' mandolin family member as dictated by the number of strings & the tuning. However,when we come to the Irish Bouzoukis etc.,for me,they're ''kindred instruments''.

    As i mentioned in a previous post - the Mandocello & Mandobass are for me 'not true' mandolin family members,but cellos & basses of a different shape designed to blend in (sort of !) with the rest of a mandolin enssemble. Why bother when a 'true' Cello or Double Bass is so much more attractive ??.

    So - for me,we have 3 'true' mandolin family members - the mandolin / mandola & octave mandolin. All 3 satisfy the criteria of 4 pairs of 2 strings,tuned in unison & in 5ths. With regard to the 'shape' of an Octave mandolin - i think that's possibly down to
    'what works' best or 'what people want'. I've seen 'octaves' in the true F-5 'shape' & GBOM's in various shapes - IMO,all are valid, regardless. The body shape is a matter of personal preferrence. Personally,i absolutely love GBOM's & i wish i could afford one. For me,it's all about the 'tone' & they seem to have a tone that i love.

    Purely my personal take on the Mandolin family - but regardless,they all have their own place as musical instruments,some more suited to one 'genre' maybe than another - but all terrific !!,
    Ivan

    Sierra Hull playing a Heiden GBOM :- https://youtu.be/1Dx5Ft1Pbvw
    Sierra Hull playing a Weber Octave mandolin : - https://youtu.be/7lewRHqq7zI

    I like both but 'prefer' the GBOM - maybe because i'm a frustrated (lousy) guitar player.
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  14. #36
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    Sierra Hull playing a Heiden GBOM :- https://youtu.be/1Dx5Ft1Pbvw
    Sierra Hull playing a Weber Octave mandolin : - https://youtu.be/7lewRHqq7zI

    I like both but 'prefer' the GBOM - maybe because i'm a frustrated (lousy) guitar player.
    You may have hit on something there about the guitar body. I'm coming at it from the opposite perspective!

    I played guitars for 30-odd years before picking up the mandolin. Everything from Renbourn or Kottke fingerstyle to lead electric guitar in a Blues band. Not so much any more. I've just gone through a period where I sold off all but two of the dozen different electric and acoustic guitars I've accumulated over the years. Just one nylon string and one steel string acoustic remaining, for a few fingerstyle arrangements and occasionally backing my S.O. when she plays fiddle. I feel like I'm mostly "done" with guitars now as a primary instrument. I spend most of my time now on mandolin. and trying to learn Irish flute.

    So when I see a GBOM, it probably triggers that "not another guitar!" reaction. Nothing to do with the viability of the instrument in someone else's hands.

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  16. #37

    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    My associations/references go back further: vihuela and lute encompass the converse relationships - double-course, double-bout ('guitar') shapes traditionally played plectrum, gut-strung "teardrop" shapes played fingerstyle, et c . Instruments like quatro, charangos, all sorts of permutations. Then along come electric and eclectic instruments and I'm afraid I don't possess that much affinity one way or another concerning mandolin and various other stringed instrument shapes. I like em all!
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    From foldedpath - "..So when I see a GBOM, it probably triggers that "not another guitar !" reaction." I understand that 100 %.

    My problem is in trying to understand 4 / 5 stringed mini, ''solid bodied guitar shaped instruments'' touted as 'mandolins'. They neither look like a mandolin,or are strung as a mandolin (4 pairs of 2 strings tuned in unison & in 5ths) although,i have seen some sporting the full quota of strings. I suppose that i could tune my banjo in 5ths (maybe ?) - but it could never be called a mandolin.

    So i think that 'for me', the stringing / tuning is the primary criteria & body shape,maybe not so important - within reason,
    Ivan
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  18. #39
    Gadfly Dr H's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    First off, I want to thank everybody for the interesting discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    Taking foldedpath's viewpoint expressed above - what 'makes a mandolin a mandolin' ??. Is it the body shape or the number of strings / tuning ?.

    If we look at the Violin family - the mandolin family's close relatives, then they all have a similar body shape - one is simply a larger version of the other with the appropriately lower tuning = totally understandable. When we come to the mandolin family 'proper',we have the mandolin & the mandola,with the mandola being a larger version of the mandolin - thus basically being a violin/viola equivalent. After that, we then come to the 'Octave' instruments,which don't have a violin family equivalent. Despite there being quite a few varations on the body shape of 'octaves',i feel that they are a logical & 'true' mandolin family member as dictated by the number of strings & the tuning. However,when we come to the Irish Bouzoukis etc.,for me,they're ''kindred instruments''.
    I like that approach. I will point out, though that there is an equivalent in the violin family -- although rare -- to the octave mandolin: the tenor violin. Same body shape, larger than a viola, smaller than a cello, tuned an octave below the violin.

    Also, while the cello maintains the same body shape as the violin, the double bass doesn't -- it's shaped more like the old viols, and is closer to them. So there's room for variation in the violin family, too.


    As i mentioned in a previous post - the Mandocello & Mandobass are for me 'not true' mandolin family members,but cellos & basses of a different shape designed to blend in (sort of !) with the rest of a mandolin enssemble. Why bother when a 'true' Cello or Double Bass is so much more attractive ??.
    I'd argue that the mandocello, at least, has a sound distinctly different from that of a cello.
    Of course it's also pretty different from the sound of a mandolin, too, so I'm not sure where that leaves us.

    I agree about the mandobass, though, unless maybe you found one that had double strung courses.


    So - for me,we have 3 'true' mandolin family members - the mandolin / mandola & octave mandolin. All 3 satisfy the criteria of 4 pairs of 2 strings,tuned in unison & in 5ths. With regard to the 'shape' of an Octave mandolin - i think that's possibly down to
    'what works' best or 'what people want'. I've seen 'octaves' in the true F-5 'shape' & GBOM's in various shapes - IMO,all are valid, regardless. The body shape is a matter of personal preferrence. Personally,i absolutely love GBOM's & i wish i could afford one. For me,it's all about the 'tone' & they seem to have a tone that i love.

    Purely my personal take on the Mandolin family - but regardless,they all have their own place as musical instruments,some more suited to one 'genre' maybe than another - but all terrific !!,
    Ivan

    Sierra Hull playing a Heiden GBOM :- https://youtu.be/1Dx5Ft1Pbvw
    Sierra Hull playing a Weber Octave mandolin : - https://youtu.be/7lewRHqq7zI

    I like both but 'prefer' the GBOM - maybe because i'm a frustrated (lousy) guitar player.
    Thanks for the insights, Ivan.
    Dr H
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  20. #40
    F5G & MD305 Astro's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    Well I'd just like to point out that the acoustic bass doesn't sound anything like the aquatic bass. And they don't taste the same neither. Pronounced completely different too, yet they're spelled just the same.

    And on the other hand look at the violin and the fiddle. They look the same but the folks playing them sure look different. And the folks listening to them sure look different too.

    So it all goes to show you that it just depends on what you're using it for and/or what kind of bait you're using. And, to some extent, what the folks messing with them look like.

    Dont even get me talking about the tenor banjo.
    No matter where I go, there I am...Unless I'm running a little late.

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  22. #41
    Gadfly Dr H's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Well I'd just like to point out that the acoustic bass doesn't sound anything like the aquatic bass.
    Smallmouth or largemouth?

    And do you catch those on a French bow or a German bow?
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  23. #42
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    Dr H - Here's a bit of info. re. Tenor Violins :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baritone_violin . The articles is about Baritone Violins,but the Tenor variety is mentioned.

    I am now more edificated than i was yesterday !!!,
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  24. #43
    working musician Jim Bevan's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    I've been following this thread with concerned interest because, for me, this isn't just a hypothetical question – I'll be playing a Jonathan Mann SEM-5 solid-body 14.7" scale 5-string electric mando in a Franco Dragone show that's opening in a couple of months in Dubai, and I need to decide soon what should be printed in the program books. I'm leaning towards "electric mandolin" because there's some precedent, there's the whole Bigsby/Tiny Moore/Fender history behind that designation, there's even a Wikipedia page, and Martin Stillion's my friend. Everyone in the show, however, including the composer, is calling it a guitar (or "that little guitar"), and that's certainly what its role is here, why I'm playing it: there is no electric guitarist in the band, the music needs that tone now and then, and I can certainly supply it with this baby.

    The only thing this "Manndolin" has in common with the mandolin family is the tuning – everything else about it is "guitar". Is tuning enough to keep it on the mandolin side of the fence? My started-on-cello daughter played a Fender Mustang bass strung C-G-D-A during her high school/college years. Is that an "electric octave mandocello"? I think not – despite its tuning, I still consider it a Fender bass.

    I'd thought about starting one of those "straw poll" threads, and then this thread popped up. I welcome opinions – I need to commit.
    Last edited by Jim Bevan; Jun-16-2017 at 3:01am. Reason: grammar

  25. #44
    Mangler of Tunes OneChordTrick's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    As it has five strings surely that makes it more akin to a cittern? But as it's short scale why not a citternette?

    That should really confuse them

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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    Yeah! "Power-chitternette" I always thought we'd get more respect if we used the word 'power' rather than electric, but then you can dilute it with the diminutive.
    Eoin



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  27. #46
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    @Jim Bevan:
    My first reaction was to say that if it's tuned in 5th's at the same pitch as a mandolin, then it's an electric mandolin, period.

    Then I went to the builder's web site and saw what these SEM-5's looked like. With single course strings and an electric guitar-derived body like that, I think you might as well call it an electric guitar. Especially if it's covering that role in the show, with nothing especially "mandolinny" in the tone. In other words, it passes the "duck test" (if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc.).

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  29. #47
    Gadfly Dr H's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by OneChordTrick View Post
    As it has five strings surely that makes it more akin to a cittern? But as it's short scale why not a citternette?

    That should really confuse them
    Five strings? I'm thinking "banjo".
    Dr H
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  30. #48
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    If it had 8 strings & was tuned as a mandolin,IMO,it would qualify as a 'guitar bodied' Elec.mandolin. With only 5 strings,regardless of tuning,for me,it's outside the mandolin family 'proper'. Call it a 5 stringed,small bodied elec.guitar tuned as per. a mandolin (but what's the extra string tuned to ?).

    There have always been novel variations on standard instruments & i suppose that there always will be. 6-stringed ''banjos'' tuned like a guitar were common back in the mid 1960's & even the 12-stringed guitar was fairly novel back then - all good fun !!,
    Ivan
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  31. #49

    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bevan View Post
    I'm leaning towards "electric mandolin" because there's some precedent, there's the whole Bigsby/Tiny Moore/Fender history behind that designation, there's even a Wikipedia page....
    It all boils down to whether you go with the established history, or with the arguments that you should ignore the actual history because some folks are ignorant of or unfamiliar with it.

    Bowlbacks and guitar-body mandolinettos predate the F and A models that some internet folks are proposing as the only true mandolins. It doesn't matter if some folks don't like that fact, or if they feel their own limited perspective and mistaken history should take precedence. Tiny Moore and Jethro Burns were mandolin players, even if anonymous internet people claim (with no actual evidence) that they weren't.

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    I'm going to argue in favor of the actual history and facts. That way, you can actually reduce the ignorance in the world. Since I'm assuming the goal of your blurb is to be informative, why not be factual while doing so?
    ----

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  32. #50
    working musician Jim Bevan's Avatar
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    Feb 2010
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    Limache, Chile
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    809

    Default Re: When is a "mandolin" . . .

    The "extra string" is a low C. The instrument is tuned C-G-D-A-E.

    I agree that it doesn't look like a mandolin, but it doesn't look like a mandolin in much the same way as a Strat doesn't look like a Martin.

    And I agree with Ivan and foldedpath, that my instrument is firmly squatting in the electric guitar's territory, but I'm feeling that it doesn't rightfully belong there – it's a descendant of Tiny Moore's Bigsby, and, ambitions aside, it needs to accept its heritage. I'll bet that if I entered an electric guitar forum claiming that this instrument is a guitar, that both it and I would end up on the Island of Misfit Toys.
    (I'm wishing that Mike Marshall would jump in here – I have #2 of his signature series 5-string electrics (same scale-length as the SEM-5), and I'd be curious to hear his opinion.)

    As to how this fits in with the overall topic of this thread: If a 12-string guitar is still a guitar, and an electric guitar is still a guitar, then I'm inclined to think that a single-course electric mandolin is still a mandolin.

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