Action question

[jones]

All, when I first started playing, I hiked up the action on my mandolin, especially on the bass side, to get rid of some buzz on the G string. Some months later, I'm wondering if the high action is getting in the way of playing cleanly and easily. What is "normal" action anyway - and how would I measure it? Many thanks in advance.

[pops1]

Top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the G string. Most will say 2/32", I like mine a little lower than that, but frets need to be level to get way low. I like 1.5/32" on the E string.

[Folkmusician.com]

A mandolin with a good setup (level frets), can generally run 4/64th at the G (12th fret) without buzzing for the majority of players. There are of course, many small factors.

Average that most players run is a little higher than that.

Nut height and relief need to be set first. Bridge height and intonation are the last stages of setup.

[acousticphd]

All, when I first started playing, I hiked up the action on my mandolin, especially on the bass side, to get rid of some buzz on the G string. Some months later, I'm wondering if the high action is getting in the way of playing cleanly and easily. What is "normal" action anyway - and how would I measure it? Many thanks in advance.

To Q1, I would wager the answer "yes". It's a disadvantage to have to struggle with your fretting, especially beg-int'd players. It's also a disadvantage for many advanced players, but generally they have a clearer idea of what kind of playability they're after.

To Q2: With a good measuring rule or gauge. Have a look at one or more of the many free setup resources online, like Frank Ford's webpages.

It's important to track down what is causing the the buzz(es) in the first place, by doing a systematic diagnosis and setup, as Robert says. Nut slots the correct depth, just enough relief, leveling frets if necessary, then adjusting bridge height, and/or adjusting bridge slot depth. I think it's really an advantage that every player have a general understanding of what this involves (watching a good setup video is a good way), even if you have it done by a tech or luthier (which is a good idea).

In my experience, one of the most common fret-buzz causes on the average mandolin is the common hump or bump in the fingerboard, and hence the fret height, around the 12th-14th fret. That is, because of the "dip" (relief, often too much) in the center of the board, when you fret in the 5th-9th fret range, it causes the string to buzz near the 12th fret. This is often worst on the G string because they move the most when plucked. Sometimes some fret leveling is needed in that 12th-14th area. Raising the bridge helps relieve the buzz, but is just going to make it feel stiffer to play in the middle range.

[Mike Arakelian]

If you don't already have them, invest $5-6 on a set of automotive feeler gauges. You can use the various combinations to measure either in inches or millimeters from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the string. It's a good idea to keep a log or file on what the E and G strings are set at for future reference.

[rfd]

the best way to measure action is with yer fingers and ears, not with rulers or gauges. trust in yer senses, not tools.

almost all non-custom fretted instruments stand an excellent chance of allowing for a lowered action, thus faster fretting, via a fret level & crown, then a setup for action and intonation which may require tweaks of the bridge, saddle, nut and truss rod (if present and adjustable).

[Mark Wilson]

Top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the G string. Most will say 2/32", I like mine a little lower than that, but frets need to be level to get way low. I like 1.5/32" on the E string.

[sblock]

I usually just check my action with a flatpick. I play with either a 0.060" or 0.055" thick pick (like the BlueChip CT55 or TAD60). A fairly standard mandolin action of 1/16" = 2/32" = 4/64" = 0.0625" is such that my pick will JUST manage to slide under the strings at the 12th fret, with only a sliver to spare. Easy peasy.

[multidon]

Hey, pops1! You may like 1.5/32nds, but I prefer 3/64ths!

[jones]

Thank you all for the helpful responses. I probably have the width of three TAD-50's at the 12th fret now, so sounds like a lowering experiment is warranted. Again, thanks.

[Stevo75]

Yes that's too high. You probably should check the nut. If it's too low there you'll have to over compensate at the bridge to prevent open strings from buzzing.

[Br1ck]

Rob Meldrum's e book is in order. You could go the extra mile and fret level and recrown. Since I learned how to do this, I've found it a revelation. Every instrument I own benefited from a fret leveling.

[rfd]

measuring for string action is silly nonsense and those who are doing so need to stop that and just allow yer FRETTING FINGERS and EARS tell you how string action FEELS and SOUNDS. this is a PERSONAL FEELY TOUCHY thing, not an absolute scientific play-by-numbers-one-size-fits-all game.

if you want as low and fast a playing action as the fretted instrument's NECK will allow, and the neck has a well functioning adjustable truss rod (very good to have, though not a prime requirement), a full fret level and crown is in order. if you can reasonably well play a stringed instrument, you should already have the crafting dexterity to perform a good L&C on yer mando. you can do this yerself and save $100 to $200. it will require a minimum of tooling and the right knowledge. interesting and/or interested?

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . if you can reasonably well play a stringed instrument, you should already have the crafting dexterity to perform a good L&C on yer mando. you can do this yerself and save $100 to $200. it will require a minimum of tooling and the right knowledge. interesting and/or interested?

Hey, Rob -

If only! I used to fix my own car - until I realized that my repairs cost more to get fixed than the problems I thought I was fixing - not to mention the cost of the tools.

The last thing I'd do with any of my instruments is try to improve the action with a fret file. So I pay pros (like you!) to get the action right.

[rfd]

charlie, it's (L&C) not as daunting as you'd think - and using a file is usually not required on most frets. once the fretboard is leveled via the truss rod (using a simple tool made from a cheap drafting t-square), the typical actual leveling is mostly done with a few abrasive papers. yes, there are some tools/components required. but once acquired, once understood their use, you are freed of being at the mercy of someone else taking care or your instrument. the basics i teach most fretted instrument players consist of simple fret, nut and bridge/saddle work. the charge for passing on this knowledge is .... $0.

if yer in the fretted instrument (mando, banjo, guitar, uke, etc) game for life, besides learning to use the tool, learning how to care for its setup and maintenance is not so much about saving money and time, it's about "completing your circle of music" and being independently competent.

[Willie Poole]

Just lower the bridge a tad and check that string at each fret all the way up the neck and do this until you get the buzz and then raise it back up `til it doesn`t buzz any more, that will be your minimum setting, if there is a slight bow in the neck you may need to have that corrected first by getting a truss rod adjustment which may require a good repairman...It is important to make sure that all of the frets and the fret board are level, some time you will find a high fret and that will cause a buzz and adjusting the bridge higher to get rid of the buzz will be way too high and that fret can be pushed back down into the fret board or leveled...

I would get Robs set up instructions and read it and if you feel after reading it that you can do the corrections..Have at it...Some repair shops will take time and explain to you what needs to be done and actually show you what tools etc are need...

Good luck...Willie

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . if yer in the fretted instrument (mando, banjo, guitar, uke, etc) game for life, besides learning to use the tool, learning how to care for its setup and maintenance is not so much about saving money and time, it's about "completing your circle of music" . . . .

I guess. You really have no idea how many things I've broken fixing them. I'm settling for a semi-circle.

[rfd]

... some time you will find a high fret and that will cause a buzz and adjusting the bridge higher to get rid of the buzz will be way too high and that fret can be pushed back down into the fret board or leveled...

unlike the brass and other soft alloys of yesteryear, the fret wire used from a leas the 50's on to today - nickel silver, EVO, stainless steel - all have a goodly "spring" and pushing down on a high fret is useless. however, clamping down the high fret and wicking in water thin CYA almost always does the job.

[kurth83]

The StewMac string height guages are the bomb, even a mediocre amateur tech like me is able to dial in a very precise string height.

It took all the guesswork out of nut filing, and allows for a perfect setup (once you know what numbers you like) every time.

It also allows one to replicate the feel of one instrument on another. I copied my MD-650 - setup by themandolinstore - to a mandostrat I picked up recently, and they feel nearly the same. The repeatability is simply outstanding when you have 1/100" accuracy to work with.

I never had much luck with feeler guages.

I wish I had bought those things years ago.

[rfd]

after laying out the 4 courses and 8 slots for a mando nut, i "dial in string height" (technically called "nut relief") during nut cutting by stringing up to concert pitch (with only 4 strings, not 8 - it is important to bring each string to concert pitch as their tension is part of the nut slot cutting process) and checking the nut relief by depressing the string for the slot being cut between the 2nd and 3rd frets. the correct nut relief for each of the 8 slots is determined with the most appropriate and accurate tools known to man - human eyes and fingers. when the 1st slot of a course has been completed, its string is simply moved over to the 2nd slot (of both the nut and bridge saddle) of that course. this absolutely guarantees as perfect a nut relief for each string as desired, with no guess work and no surprises after all the nut slots have been cut. this is also done with the nut blank not glued in place - that comes later and allows the nut to be perfectly positioned for the end courses (E and G) with regards to the fingerboard edges. no tools or gauges needed or wanted other than my modified stew-mac nut slot string spacing ruler.

[Folkmusician.com]

after laying out the 4 courses and 8 slots for a mando nut, i "dial in string height" (technically called "nut relief") during nut cutting by stringing up to concert pitch...

The first thing we have 100% agreed on! This is exactly what I do. For me, measuring string height at the nut is not nearly as accurate as using this method.

Now the bridge height, I do measure.

[rfd]

there are more'n a few good ways to skin a cat.

[fidlplr1979]

I usually just check my action with a flatpick. I play with either a 0.060" or 0.055" thick pick (like the BlueChip CT55 or TAD60). A fairly standard mandolin action of 1/16" = 2/32" = 4/64" = 0.0625" is such that my pick will JUST manage to slide under the strings at the 12th fret, with only a sliver to spare. Easy peasy.

HA ! I do the exact same thing with my TD-55 and I thought I was the only one ! I found that to be my go to check for action and it works every time.