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Thread: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

  1. #1

    Default Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    This late 1950's Gibson 160E just came in for repairs. It's ladder braced with an adjustable bridge and a plywood top. The owner wants me to address some severe bellying and several loose braces.

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    The pickup is gone and the electronics are also missing, but the owner has supposedly bought a kit to replace them and will deal with that himself. There is also some serious finish damage but I don't expect to be tackling that.

    The big issue I face right now, is removing the bridge. This has the small screws and bolts holding it place which were easy enough to remove as well as the larger height adjustment screws at the end of the ceramic saddle. The problem is that I can't get the adjustable saddle to come out. The adjusting screws seem to screw into brass inserts in the top which just spin with the adjustment screws rather than raise or lower the ceramic saddle.

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    I've been able to remove the bolts and lock washers from the brass inserts on the inside, but that makes no difference. The entire brass insert just spins and won't back out of the top. I've re-attached the bolts and lock washers and tried unscrewing the adjustment screws out, but the bolts simply unscrew and spin and do not raise the saddle or come out. I've tightened the bolts as much as possible, but I'm concerned about putting too much pressure on the ceramic saddle by overtightening.

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    I'm going to need to replace the very damaged bridge plate, but don't want to add any more damage to the top getting the bridge off. Any suggestions????

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    Might try taking the lock nut off and using a piece of something convenient push up from inside while unscrewing the adjuster and see if you can remove the insert that way at the same time. If you can heat and flatten the bridge plate, glue and dust will repair the hole damage. Put a piece of masking tape underneath and let the glue and dust settle and harden, remove the tape and drill out for the pins.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    If you turn the guitar over on its face, then, (and it will be tricky to accomplish) with your hand through the soundhole and apply some penetrating oil, just a drop or two and let it sit, still face down so the oil will get where it needs to go. It should come out. You are right to be cautious about the ceramic saddle, I have seen many broken ones. The trick is to unscrew each side a little at a time until you can get it out. The brass inserts won't come out UNTIL you remove the bridge from the top. Use heat and an artist's pallet knife to remove the bridge. Once the bridge is off, usually the geometry has distorted over the years due to string tension, sometimes resulting in a crack on the thinner portion of the bridge -- easily reglued. What I usually do is slightly enlarge the saddle opening, so the saddle can be adjusted easily without binding, before I glue the bridge back on. You might want to check the bridge plate at this time, probably is shot after 60 years.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    Another trick if the brass insert still spins, helps if you have small hands, is to take the nut from one side and put it on top of the other nut inside the guitar and tighten them against each other -- you will probably need some very thin open end miniature wrenches, once tight, you can hold the nuts with a wrench and unscrew the bridge adjustment screw with a screwdriver. Be careful, you don't want to break these. Use the penetrating oil in any case, you don't want to break the screw.
    Last edited by Jeff Mando; May-30-2017 at 9:42pm.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    Thanks for the replies. I did try pushing up from inside, both with the nut on the brass insert and off with no results. Were I to guess, I'd assume the adjustment screws that run down into the brass inserts are a bit rusted and won't release. I did try penetrating oil from the top, but will also try it from inside where it really needs it great idea. I'm heading out on the road for a few days and I'll try oiling it lightly before I take off. I also think the idea of "double bolting" the brass insert might do the trick and I'll give the a try when I get back.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    Yet another trick with penetrating oil is to first take an x-acto blade and "etch" or scrape where the screw meets the brass insert. Sometimes penetrating oil won't work because there is rust blocking where the oil needs to seep to.

  7. #7
    Registered User Frank Ford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    I'd grip the brass inserts with pliers and hold it tight while backing out the bridge adjusting screws. Those brass inserts are countersunk into spruce, which is too soft to hold tightly with the original nuts and lock washers. If you're concerned about boogering up the threads on the inserts, simply use a bit of hot melt glue to attach some leather pads to your vise-grip or whatever pliers you use. You will need to grip the inserts good and hard to get the screws out, but they should come.

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  9. #8

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    Thanks for the advice, Frank! I've tried everything else with no results so I'm ready to give that a shot. I'm traveling for the next several days and won't get to this till next week, but I'll let everyone know how it works.

  10. #9

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    If you damage the brass inserts, I have extras I can send you. The slotted adjustment screws are not so easy to find, so be careful with those. I echo the recommendation of using penetrating oil to free the adjustment screws.
    The threaded inserts can be difficult to remove from the top. I have made a puller with a socket, a washer, and a 6-32 screw. 6-32 is the thread size of the adjustment screws.
    You might consider removing the bridge, saddle, and adjustment hardware all at once. Remove the 1/2" hex nuts and washers, and push on the inserts from inside the guitar. At the same time, use a thin spatula between the bridge and the top.
    You are right to be concerned about chipping the top around the inserts. The treble end insert is very close to the edge of the bridge.
    John

  11. #10

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    Here's the latest:

    I got back last night and went out and bought a small pair vice grips. As you suggested Frank, I glued a couple layers of leather to the teeth. I then clamped the vice grips onto the brass inserts, no easy task! I had put penetrating oil on the screws and brass inserts from inside as suggested above before I went out on the road. I did try to unscrew the screws before resorting to the vice grips, but was not able to move them.

    When I gripped the brass inserts with the vice grips, the screws did break loose fairly easily... clearly the penetrating oil did some good!

    A little back story here... this guitar had been involved in an insurance claim for water damage and the insurance agent kept the carcass so there had been high moisture in the guitar at one point which would explain the issue.

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    I am happy to say that I did not damage the brass inserts, but John, your advice to remove the bridge, saddle, and adjustment hardware all at once was right on the mark. There was extreme bellying on the top and as soon as I heated up the bridge it came right off. The brass inserts were completely loose and came out with just by touching from below. If I had pulled the bridge earlier, it would have all come right out! A lesson learned.

    I'm planning on removing and the damaged bridge plate and dealing with several loose top braces. I'll post pics as I continue.

    Thanks!

  12. #11

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    I have a 1965 Epiphone Texan with this bridge which has developed a buzz on the b and e string. The break point on the saddle has flattened out. Can these be filed to restore the correct break point?

    These are much maligned and often replaced with a conventional bridge, but I'm not inclined to mess with a great sounding guitar.
    Silverangel A
    Arches F style kit
    1913 Gibson A-1

  13. #12

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    I'm not sure I'm the one to answer this, but my experience with this type of Gibson bridge is that the ceramic insert is extremely hard and probably wouldn't take filing. I have seen wooden adjustable saddles on some lower end Gibsons which, of course, could easily be filed. If that's what you've got, you're good to go. This particular one is clearly an early model. The bridge is quite thins and the ceramic saddle is glazed, something I've never seen on a Gibson before. I had a 60's B-25 that had a plastic bridge with a ceramic saddle and a 1956 J-45 (which I still own) that also had the adjustable bridge. Both (and every other one I've ever seen) had unglazed ceramic saddles. I had the '56 converted to a fixed bridge and the improvement in tone was remarkable.

  14. #13

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    After removing the bridge, I was able to focus on the bridge plate. The extreme bow in the top was the result of a combination of factors, Moisture, string tension, loose top braces and the fact that the strength of the top was compromised by the line of 8 holes (2 small bolts holding the bridge on plus the 6 string pin holes). The wood between the holes was cracked.

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    Being ladder braced, the bridge plate was non standard and quite large, 10" X 2" X 1/8"
    with angled ends and made of spruce, not maple. I was able to saturate the wood by putting wet paper towels on it from the inside and letting sit for a couple hour. I then heated the top with a hair dryer and was able to remove the bridge plate intact with a bent, sharpened butter knife.

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    Once the bridge and bridge plate were off, I clamped the top to flatten out the belying while it was still warm and wet. I did this twice, reducing the bellying by not quite 2/3rds.

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    While this helped, the bellying won't be fully resolved until the braces are glued and the new bridge plate is in place. The owner has agreed with my suggestion of replacing the adjustable bridge with a fixed one. I'm currently filling in all the holes with a bridge saver tool to stabilize the damaged area and will replace the original spruce bridge plate with a Maple one for greater strength and tone. I was able to find a large enough piece of quarter sawn maple by purchasing an unslotted maple fingerboard which I will cut to size.

    Of course, all original parts will stay with the guitar for originality purposes.

  15. #14
    Registered User rockies's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    I haven't seen one of those bridges for many years in my hands ... but this wasn't the bridge where you turned the screw CCW to raise the saddle and CW to lower it is it ? Just asking .
    Dave
    Heiden A, '52 Martin D-18, Taylor 510, Carlson Custom A with Electronics

  16. #15
    Registered User rockies's Avatar
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    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    Pardon me but I worded that backwards it should have been CW to raise the saddle. The bridge I was thinking about was backassward to common sense.
    Dave
    Heiden A, '52 Martin D-18, Taylor 510, Carlson Custom A with Electronics

  17. #16

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    As I recall, and I'll check later to confirm and re-post if I'm wrong, raising and lowering the bridge was as would be expected; Clockwise tightened, counterclockwise loosened.

  18. #17

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    I've begun the re-gluing of the loose top braces, but am concerned that I need to flatten out the top completely before proceeding further. This had massive top bellying with part of the problem being broken plywood around the pin holes. It was not flattening out on it's own as I re-glued the first brace. After removing the clamps, but before the glue had fully hardened, I put cast iron window weights on the guitar top (protected by a plastic cutting board) to help flatten the top.

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    There was also extreme warping around the pick guard which had shrunken over the years pulling the top into a concave area around the pick guard and making the top warpage even more extreme. Here, I tried a couple different techniques. I heated the top and tried clamping it to reduce the warp. Several times through with this process and I had removed about 2/3 of the warpage/bellying. I then heated not only the top, but the walnut board that I was clamping it to focusing on the pick guard area with the heat and clamping.

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    Here I was particularly careful to gently put pressure on the warped pick guard. This seemed to have a very positive effect removing about 1/2 the warp first time out. I re-heated and re-set the clamps again and will leave them overnight before checking on the progress.

    In the meantime, I've cleaned one brace that came completely loose and cut a new maple bridge plate to replace the original spruce one. I've also purchased a replacement reverse belly bridge (fixed, not adjustable) which I will use rather than re-using the original adjustable bridge. It's not a perfect match, but I can modify the footprint to match the original and make it work. The original bridge will stay with the guitar to preserve it's collectible value.

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  19. #18

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    OK, here's the latest.

    I re-glued the 2 ladder braces below the bridge plate and glued in the new bridge plate. This greatly reduced the bellying, but I do notice there is still a bit of a bulge even though the braces glued up well. In looking at the one brace that came completely out, I see that it is curved on the bottom (the side the glues to the guitar top) but flat on the other side suggesting to me that the brace isn't warped and I original thought, but is in face radiused. Does anyone have any thoughts about this? I know there were feedback issues with this guitar and I'm wondering if this was an attempt to stiffen the top to reduce that.

    I also glued in the new maple bridge plate, just slightly larger than the original Spruce one.

  20. #19

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    Based on previous posts I read, I went ahead and gently heated the pick guard and was able loosen and remove it with no damage by sliding a painter's pallet knife underneath the pick guard and slowly working it off. I then lightly dampened the wood both inside and out and gently clamped the area flat overnight. What a tremendous difference! I also gently hated 2 boards and the pick guard itself and blamed them together with the pick guard between. This morning both the pickguard and the guitar top were almost completely flat.

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    Stu mac suggested the double adhesive stick sheets for re-application. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Of course, I'll seal the wood with shellac and I assume that I need to remove the old glue etc from the underside of the pick guard.

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    I'm glad you (or your customer with your encouragement) chose to go with a more conventional bridge. On Occasion, I have filled those old bridges' slots with rosewood. And cut saddle slots into them. Which improved the tone of the guitar significantly On others i fashioned a new bridge using the old one as a template... that improved the sound even more!

  22. #21

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    This thread should be read closely by the poster who believes an individually adjustable mandolin bridge would be a good idea.

  23. #22

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    I'm very conflicted as to what to do with my Epiphone Texan. It plays great now, but there is a pretty significant ski jump from where the body joins the neck. I'd like to do a fret level but there would not be much if any of the upper frets left. Because the ceramic bridge is so tall, it would probably be no problem to fill the saddle inserts and cut a new slot for a bone saddle, but this guitar sounds SOOOO very good, I'm very reluctant to mess with it.

    I guess the alternative is a neck reset. It is a mystery to me that the action is fine with the amount the fretboard rises.
    Silverangel A
    Arches F style kit
    1913 Gibson A-1

  24. #23

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    There is something bizarre, cool, and vintage about those weird ceramic adjustable bridge saddles. They often get changed out in hopes of a better sound, but really they are kind of the sound of the 60's and the Beatles, specifically -- pretty hard to get a better sound, unless you are looking for a bluegrass "cannon." Not the case with the Texan, but the 160 E is perhaps overbraced possibly to mate with the magnetic pickup better, not sure. I've read somewhere that the Beatles liked recording with the 160 E acoustically because it recorded so flat, a quality most of us would describe as "dull" acoustically, again, compared to a more responsive guitar. I'm sure the Beatles had access to whatever they wanted in the studio, but probably just grabbed an old favorite to record with, like most of us would.

    A couple thoughts. I had a 60's Gibson Country & Western which a previous owner had changed the bridge from the ceramic to a "normal" type bridge before I got it. It played and sounded great, but I had nothing to compare it to. What was really annoying to me was how many people commented "that bridge has been changed!" before I ever plucked a note -- kind of like putting racing stripes on a Cadillac......you know, the vintage "police"......

    I recently restored a ceramic bridge on an early 60's Hummingbird and went to great pains to save the bridge and its functionality. In this case, the customer was unappreciative and really couldn't care less. I pointed out that people ask as much as $9K for first year Hummingbirds and I felt I had a duty to try to keep it as original as possible.

    Another one of Gibson's not so great ideas was the bolted-on plastic bridge which came either with an adjustable saddle or with a normal saddle. I recently worked on one of these guitars where the bridge was cracked -- the only repair options were find a used one (on eBay) or change to a similar shaped wooden bridge. The customer decided to go with the wooden replacement and was very happy. Of course, in this case, it was a 60's LG-1, not nearly as valuable as the Hummingbird.

    Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do to keep these old guitars (and mandolins!) playing......
    Last edited by Jeff Mando; Jun-26-2017 at 1:27pm.

  25. #24

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    Ha, I replaced one of those plastic bridges on a friend's 65 Epi Cabellero. Huge improvement to an instrument that needed improvement. Just the kind of instrument for me to practice on. I just fixed a nasty neck heal crack and reglued some braces, and will soon do a refret. Still, it's being worth of maybe $500 on a good day has its owner taking a chance on my skills.LOL.

    Plastic bridge? What were they thinking????
    Silverangel A
    Arches F style kit
    1913 Gibson A-1

  26. #25

    Default Re: Late 1950's Gibson 160 E

    "There is something bizarre, cool, and vintage about those weird ceramic adjustable bridge saddles. They often get changed out in hopes of a better sound, but really they are kind of the sound of the 60's and the Beatles, specifically -- pretty hard to get a better sound, unless you are looking for a bluegrass "cannon." ... I've read somewhere that the Beatles liked recording with the 160 E acoustically because it recorded so flat, a quality most of us would describe as "dull" acoustically, again, compared to a more responsive guitar."

    I'd agree that the sound is clearly quite different on the 160 E. For years I noted the dull sounding guitar on the Beatles recordings, but it worked well with the electric instruments which tend to provide the shimmer and brightness to contrast the acoustic sound. I was surprised to find out that the 160 E guitar had a plywood top (at least this one does) and is ladder braced. I'm sure that has a great deal to do with the sound as well.

    For the record, I have a 1956 Gibson J-45 that originally had an adjustable bridge. I had it changed out for a fixed bridge and had the bridge built to reflect a late 40's Southern Jumbo I also own. That guitar (the SJ) still has the original bridge which is quite thin. The sound is now excellent and was called "the best sounding acoustic guitar I've ever heard" by recording engineer Michael Day years ago in a session I was a part of. It's clear, full sounding with plenty of brights... definitely NOT a bluegrass cannon! Of course, it has a solid spruce top with X bracing.

    As it turns out, the restoration of this guitar is progressing much better than I had hoped and the owner is now leaning towards keeping the original bridge rather than replacing it.

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