Is there a way to play the note that is halfway between C and C#?

[sbhikes]

Some tunes have a note that's halfway between, neither a C nor a C#. It sounds really cool on fiddle but I have no idea how to do it on mandolin. Is there a trick you can do?

[MikeEdgerton]

bend the string up a bit with your finger.

[sbhikes]

The strings are awful tight.

[Bill McCall]

The strings are awful tight.

Push harder.

[mrmando]

Be like Gerald Trimble and have somebody build you an instrument with microfrets.

[foldedpath]

I think I know the note you're talking about. I hear it in Irish/Scottish sessions, mostly. I've heard it called the "Piper's C" and also the "C Supernatural." It's a hair sharp from C nat, and nowhere near an actual C#.

It's a result of diatonic instruments like pipes, whistles, and flutes that are just naturally a bit sharp on a C nat when cross-fingered. I never really understood this until I started playing an "Irish" flute in D with no keys. There is a C# hole on the flute but no C nat, so you cross-finger (hold down two fingers) to get a C nat. But it's not an Equal-Tempered C nat; it's a bit sharp. You hear this with whistles, flutes, and pipes.

In an Irish session (or maybe some OldTime jams?) fiddlers naturally tend to follow along and raise that C nat a bit, even though they could play an equal-tempered C nat just as well. The tunes just naturally seem to want to go there. Especially the tunes originally written on these diatonic instruments.

There is no way to adapt to it on mandolin because we're locked into equal-tempered tuning. Playing the C nat works well enough in a single-note melody line, so I just don't worry about it. I do avoid using a full or partial C chord in a tune like Banish Misfortune or The Choice Wife, because that chord doesn't fit when everyone else on fiddles and flutes are playing that C nat a little sharp.

I hope this helps, and I hope we're talking about the same thing here. If you want to explore the mysteries of the "C Supernatural," you need to try a different instrument.

[Ivan Kelsall]

You can get that effect by doing something that i call a ''half slide''. Just push your finger over the fret at the C position (3rd fret) until you hear the tone you're after & then continue to the rest of the passage. 'Slides' are wonderful things - if you hit the wrong fret,you can ''sometimes'' slide up or down to the correct one & make it seem intentional,but your hearing has to be spot on.
When you hear the right note - that's it !!,
Ivan

[masteraviator]

The strings are awful tight.

or use TWO fingers.

[Explorer]

In this topic...

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...73-Slide-Mando

...Niles Hokkanen (the Mandocrucian) talks about the advantages of using lug nut covers on more than one finger in order to play slide mandolin in standard mandolin tuning.

[themandocello]

Other than bending the strings, no.

[Tobin]

Those "in between" notes are partly why I took up the fiddle. There's so much expressive potential once you're free from frets! I'm on the hunt for a fretless banjo now for the same reason. But I never could quite make it work on the mandolin. A quick slide from C to C# will approximate it, but it's not quite the same. And bending a double course of strings at speed is a tough thing to do.

[Mandolin Cafe]

Be like Gerald Trimble and have somebody build you an instrument with microfrets.

Or as people around Kansas City call that trick, Gerald's installed anti-theft devices. Yes, we know all about the other one that was stolen.

[sbhikes]

Yeah, it's like C supernatural. It's not just Irish. It's there in Sandy Boys, an Old-time tune. You just can't bend the notes enough, and to really funkify Sandy Boys, you need that C supernatural. A slide works, too, I guess but you can't slide into C supernatural. On my strumstick I can sort of get that note by pressing lightly. But mandolin strings are tight. I wonder if there is a way to do something with a fingernail or something. I'll have to try.

[sblock]

You should listen to David Grisman bending his mandolin strings sometime. The tension on mandolin strings may high, but he has real finger power. So YES, you can bend mandolin strings! Get to C# from C? No problem!

[foldedpath]

Bending may get you to a note halfway between C and C#, but I don't think that technique will work for the fiddle tunes where I've mostly heard a "C Supernatural." There just isn't time to get in and out of the bent note at dance tempo, where it's just one note in a sequence of 8th notes.

[stevedenver]

I agree, at tempo , it would be hard to finesse, I think.

truly, and from my experience, if you really must have that super C, ie, bendability,
get a set of Tomastik-Infelds-lighter in feel and flex for any given gauge compared to any other brands I have tried, and, importantly, super stable and will return to true pitch after a bend.

yes they are a good deal easier to bend. not like a guitar, but way better than phosphor bronze mando mediums like JT 74s, or the JT 75s I play (and occasionally bend, with resulting tuning issues at times thereafter, despite good nut and superb tuners-mandos simply have too much string behind the nut and behind the bridge.)

Tomastiks last about 9-12 months, and there is nothing better for feel, bending and stability, imho. They are super slick, which may be why they return and hold pitch, as they may not hang up on contact areas.

if you can't swallow the price, try a light gauge. fwiw, I personally find that lighter gauge strings are a bit less stable in retaining tuning compared to heavy strings.

[billkilpatrick]

Remove the frets or study U Srinivas …

[foldedpath]

Remove the frets or study U Srinivas …

That's cool stuff within that genre of music.

But I think the Piper's C, or C Supernatural we're talking about here in fiddle tunes, is something completely different. Not a sliding or bent note, just an artifact of the diatonic instruments used in that tradition for hundreds of years, before instruments with fixed frets came along as outsiders, with our strange ideas about equal temperament.

[sbhikes]

Wow, I really like that Indian music. No idea how to do that though.

[Tobin]

Yeah, it's like C supernatural. It's not just Irish. It's there in Sandy Boys, an Old-time tune. You just can't bend the notes enough, and to really funkify Sandy Boys, you need that C supernatural.

For those who aren't familiar, the "in between" C in Old-Time music is usually for a completely different reason (and achieves an entirely different effect) than when it's used in Irish style music. I usually hear it employed in modal tunes, but not always. It's usually a fiddle trick to give the tune a rougher, greasier sound by sliding up from C to just south of C#. It just has more soul than going all the way up to the full major third interval. I absolutely love the effect in Old-Time music. "Funkify" is a good way to describe it! This is, in many ways, what gives mountain music its flavor. Especially Round Peak style.

Here's one example of Justin Manglitz on fiddle doing it in the tune Black-Eyed Susan. It just comes across so much more expressive! Notice that he does go all the way up to C# in certain areas, but keeps it distinctively flat in others, for effect. It can be easily over-used.

[Stevo75]

One of the best shows I have ever seen is Remember Shakti at the Boulder Theater with U Srinivas, Zakir Hussain, and John McLaughlin. Srinivas is really young in that video above. Unfortunately he died of liver failure (did not drink alcohol) a few years ago.

Indian and middle-eastern music has all sorts of "in-between" notes.

[sbhikes]

Wow, that's a great example of it with the Georgia Jays. I'm wondering if there's an equivalent way to "funkify" mandolin. I realize you can't do the same thing, so I'm wondering if the mandolin has its own tricks. I have a heck of a time finding any good old-time mandolin players online. Too much bluegrass gets recommended and most of the mandolin players I've found sound like Irish players who know a few old-time tunes.

[Freddyfingers]

I'm thinking install a Bigsby, and push it down slightly while playing a D

[paulspafford]

Some tunes have a note that's halfway between, neither a C nor a C#. It sounds really cool on fiddle but I have no idea how to do it on mandolin. Is there a trick you can do?

That can also be known as one of the "blue notes", because the blues originated from some African music that had scales with some quarter-tones. The blue notes are between the minor third and major third of the scale, as well as between the dominant seven and major seven.

Sometimes blues pianists (piano strings being notoriously difficult to bend) will trill back and forth between the lower and the higher note, or do a slur (that'd be a slide for us) from the lower to the higher. It doesn't provide the "vocal" sound of a bend or a fretless instrument, but can be cool.

[Werner Jaekel]

https://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Slide-.../dp/B0012HK3JI