Question for those who've buffed out a satin finish.....

[Jill McAuley]

I'm thinking of buffing out the satin finish that's on the sides/back of my MTO. I've trawled through several threads regarding this topic and have decided to use Meguiar's Rubbing and Polishing compounds for the job, as several cafe members have done so with nice results. My question for those who have done this before: How much time does one spend applying the rubbing compound vs. the polishing compound? One thread mentioned the whole job taking about 4 hours (though theirs was an entirely satin MT vs mine which is a gloss top), but they didn't specify how much time was spent using the rubbing compound before moving on to the polishing one. Will it just be obvious when to move to the next stage? Does the rubbing compound bring up a shinier finish itself?

[Marty Jacobson]

Yes, the granules in the compound - whichever you use- will break down and become smaller as you use it. You can achieve a fairly acceptable gloss with Fine Cut Cleaner and then Swirl Remover. A final application of Show Car Glaze cleans residue and fills the micro-scratches with oil to make them invisible for a time.

It is entirely possible (I would almost say easy) to buff through a satin finish with just rubbing/polishing compounds. The key is not to expect it to look like a clear lacquer which has been buffed with a powered buffer, it never will due to the flattening agents in the satin finish, which makes the coating less clear than a true clear finish. I would go all over the instrument rather than staying in one spot at a time. Try to buff the whole thing in 15 minutes, and see how it looks. Keep going like that and when it's acceptable, you're done.

You can use a foam applicator pad on a drill to do this quicker, but there are risks and downsides. A risk is that you can easily overheat the finish and cause it to bubble (if there is shellac present) or just burn through it in the blink of an eye if you're not very careful about how much pressure you apply, especially on corners and ridges, such as near the neck heel.
The main downside is that it slings compound everywhere, on you, in the deepest, darkest crevices of the instrument, and all over your shop/house/wherever. So I do think that doing it with a nice cotton painting rag and going slow and steady is the cleanest, safest way to go.

Love your videos, by the way.

[Jill McAuley]

Thanks Marty! (and glad you enjoyed the videos too!). I reckon I'll steer away from the foam pad/drill route and go for slow and steady with a cotton cloth.

[Bill Cameron]

Just curious, I am wondering what the objective of this process is. I could guess, but instead I'm asking...and I take it you're not touching the top?

[Mark Wilson]

The back of my satin mandolin buffed out to semigloss with a few years of play. The top and sides still have satin finish. But, if it was a gloss top I could see buffing it all out to match the top and back

[colorado_al]

I have a Collings MT that was buffed to gloss from satin. The shine is nice, but the real benefit is removing some of the finish allowing the instrument to open up more.

[Ray(T)]

The finish on the neck of my MT mandola is buffing up nicely (purely by playing it) and it's less than 4 months old. If availability had been better in the UK I would never have consided buying one with a matt finish.

[Jill McAuley]

Just curious, I am wondering what the objective of this process is. I could guess, but instead I'm asking...and I take it you're not touching the top?

Objective? Sorry, I thought it seemed obvious - I'm not a fan of satin finishes, noticed that the neck has buffed up to a nice shine just from playing and having read threads here, discovered that buffing out the sides and back is do-able. Of course I'm not touching the top - it's a gloss top.

[mtucker]

Tons of DIY instruction on the internet...mostly automotive, but the same approach and materials are used. I think Mcguire's works well and you can get everything at your local auto parts store. The product's Marty refers to sometime come packaged in kits.

[mtucker]

Also too, by explaining what you're up to, you may be able to talk a local car 'detail' shop into giving you some small quantities of product, a cutting agent, a polishing agent etc., offering to pay of course. Purchasing at a retail store will provide you with enough product to do many more mandolins than you wish, so that could be a waste for you. Take some small 3-4 oz. containers with you, it doesn't take much for one mandolin.

[Jeff Mando]

Good point about the cost vs quantity needed. It would be easy to spend $50 or more on two or three products for this project when you only need a few drops. Then again, you don't wanna go cheap on a Collings!

OTOH, when I look at my shelf of polishes and cleaning products that I use on instruments, it seems they have a fairly long shelf life. Meguiar's states 5 years, but guys on car forums claim twice that or more is common.....

[Marty Jacobson]

Good point about the cost vs quantity needed. It would be easy to spend $50 or more on two or three products for this project when you only need a few drops. Then again, you don't wanna go cheap on a Collings!

OTOH, when I look at my shelf of polishes and cleaning products that I use on instruments, it seems they have a fairly long shelf life. Meguiar's states 5 years, but guys on car forums claim twice that or more is common.....

They last forever. I bought a few bottles close to 15 years ago and my brother still uses them...

[Marty Jacobson]

I have a Collings MT that was buffed to gloss from satin. The shine is nice, but the real benefit is removing some of the finish allowing the instrument to open up more.

I'm not sure that removing a gram of finish from the instrument will change anything measurable with the most sensitive tools, much less by the human ear/brain system. (Which is notoriously unreliable.)

[Mike Conner]

I have buffed out two or three guitars with satin finish. In my personal case, while I really prefer gloss finishes cosmetically, the satin finish on the back and rims of my Taylor acoustic-electric caused some body noise you could hear in the pickup due to rubbing on clothes, etc. during normal movement. Buffing the finish greatly reduced the body noise and yielded a smoother feel.

The other two guitars were Chinese produced instruments with some areas of rougher finish, like in the cut-away and neck heel. Again, these were rubbed out for feel rather than for cosmetics.

Also, I agree with Marty. No tonal difference likely from this tiny amount of finish removal.

[multidon]

I don't mean to step on any toes here, most especially Jill's, whose posts I always enjoy. But the question in my mind still remains. Why do folks who "don't care for satin finishes" still buy them? If gloss finishes are what you like, why not just buy what you like, rather than try to turn a satin finish into something it isn't, and can never be? Satin finish contain flatting compounds that prevent them from being truly glossy. You can smooth them out, even polish them until the cows come home, but they will never be truly glossy. Never. That said, I kind of like the look that results from the process. Kind of like polished marble.

There have been so many posts in the past on this very subject. So many people who say the same thing. Got a satin finish instrument, don't care for them, how do I buff it out. Do a search. Again, the story that is never ever told is, if you don't care for satin finishes, why did you buy one? The only motivation I can come up with is that is was to save money. Is that the motivation? Or was it an instrument that came your way as a bargain you couldn't pass up, thought you could live with the satin, but then later decided you couldn't?

I have been through the flip side of that latter situation. I got an unbelieveable bargain on my Bitterroot F but it had a custom full gloss dark sunburst finish. I don't care for sunbursts but the price was so good I got it anyways. I loved everything about it instantly except the color, but over time the color has grown on me. It makes me feel like I'm part of the tradition, if that makes any sense.

Like I said, not trying to cause trouble. Just very curious about the reasons people buy instruments they don't care for.

[Mark Gunter]

"Instruments they don't care for"

People do not buy instruments they don't care for. The finish is not the instrument any more than the lipstick is the woman. Maybe just forget about it if you don't understand?

[Matt Harris]

Nearly everyone has to compromise due to finances to one degree or another. Most of us don't own a Gilchrist or a Monteleone, or a <Insert expensive mandolin that you lust after here>. It is what it is...

[pops1]

Buying a used instrument you may not always get what you want entirely, hence the satin finish. I am one who likes the satin, but if Jill wants to make the back and sides look like the top, which is gloss, I say go for it.

[Jill McAuley]

Oh, no toes stepped on Don, all good!

For me finance is and was the issue - not about saving $$, rather about having very little extra to play around with! I would love an MT2-O, but they're out of my price range. I got my black top MTO used, because again, even a new MTO is beyond my finances. I was actually deciding between a used Sheraton Brown all satin MTO with a finger rest added, or the gloss black top MTO, and my finish preferences won out. I love everything about my MTO, I just love the satin back and sides slightly less!

[Mike Stewart]

Just very curious about the reasons people buy instruments they don't care for.

I think the world would be a better place were no more sunburst instruments made. Yet I own two sunburst mandolins. If you want an old Gibson of a certain era, that's likely what you're going to get. And used F5 Pavas simply don't exist, so when one popped up in sunburst and not blonde, well, ya want a Pava F5 for less than retail or not? I love my Pava, and it would take a much more expensive instrument for me to consider replacing it. But if a couple of hours in front of the TV with some polishing compound could turn it blonde, I'd consider the option. The only reason I'm even reading this thread is because I thought to myself, "hmm, wonder what that satin Michael Kelly would look like if I buffed it out?" And that's the festival/campfire mandolin that I couldn't give two rat poops about its appearance. Some people, myself included, just like to tinker, too.

[Grommet]

Jill-
I buffed out my satin Pava A model, as after a very few days the satin was going shiny where my fingers made contact above the treble F-hole and around the neck. I liked the satin look just fine, but was surprised the early onset wear spots. It took maybe 2 hours to go over the whole instrument, not counting the time to remove\replace the strings and tuners. Yeah I went ahead and polished both sides of the headstock in that time as well. I used only Meguires #7, and a scrap of old t-shirt. I suggest you use that as well. Since you are doing only back and sides you will not need more than 30-40 minutes tops. Leave the tuners in place and skip the back of the headstock if you can. It is very easily done, and it will be much less of a contrast to the gloss top. I look forward to more of your clips.

Scott

[multidon]

Jill, go for it and I hope you are happy with the results. But just please realize, the gloss will never match the top, no matter how much you rub with whatever compound you settle on. The flatting agents in the lacquer will prevent that. As long as you are realistic in your expectations, you will do no harm.

Mark- gee, I guess if we don't understand something posted on this forum, we should not ask any questions and just "forget it"? If everyone followed that advice, wouldn't be much of a forum, would it? I swear, my ignore list just keeps getting longer and longer.

[Jill McAuley]

Yes, I don't expect it to ever get as glossy as the top, but do like the more shiny finish that the neck has taken on from wear, so expect to get the back and sides to match that.

[pops1]

Jill, I am surprised no one has mentioned sanding out the top to satin, be quicker.

[bbcee]

Maybe the back & sides of Jill's MTO will arrive at the look & feel I like, which isn't gloss nor is it satin - it's more of a varnished appearance.

I used to burnish my plasticky gloss finish pac-rim instruments with 0000 steel wool, first for the feel of the neck but then overall for the aesthetic. Now I own instruments that don't need that kind of modifying, so I have to do other tweaks