Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 183

Thread: Play for free ...

  1. #101

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Ya music was a 'trade' eh? As many trades are slowing now, with increased socioeconomic mobility, tech, etc.

    How many times have you heard? - "Ya there was a guy around here who used to do that..."

  2. #102
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Rochester NY 14610
    Posts
    17,378

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    With a schedule like that, I would need a clerk to schedule, organize me, load and unload the car.. I gave it up just when I thought I wanted a roadie! ;0. I hate this stuff, but I'm a lousy business guy. You're no doubt good at it and don't mind it.

    Curious, do most of the venues you play have stands, mics and stuff? Many of the larger places have that stuff and amps/PA too - which alleviated much of the gear-hauling. That was a nice thing.
    1. I'm not necessarily "good at business," but I'm organized enough to keep spreadsheets of my gigs, check off payments when they come in (and chase after them when they don't -- most of the seniors' jobs involve payment after the performance, by check from the financial office, or even from "Corporate" in some distant state), and do a fair amount of promotion (mailing list, e-mail list, website etc.). I keep tax records and pay income tax on what I make; I record business expenses, mileage etc. and send 1099's to the musicians I organize to play "band jobs" when they come up. Not a huge burden; my "day job" was in municipal government financial management and budgeting -- this is tres easier.

    2. Most of the venues I play don't have PA capabilities; I'd be surprised if I get to use "house sound" half-dozen times a year. I own four "PA systems" of different sizes, from the Fender Amp Can I use to play in a seniors' facility, to an 8-channel 300-watt Sampson system that I use a couple times a year, for big dance gigs, outdoor festivals where I do sound for other musicians, etc. I use the Amp Can the most, the Fishman SA-220 SoloAmp next, a Fender Passport 150 for some band jobs, and the Sampson the least. I keep a small 5-channel mixer that I can use to extend the Fishman or the Fender when I'm working with other musicians. For microphones, I like using condenser mics, but I have a couple cheap dynamics for the seniors' jobs with the Amp Can. And I have a number of boom mic stands, with clamp-on side booms for instrument, since I only use mics, not instrument pickups.

    And I carry my stuff around with me, set it up and take it down. It's a hassle, but I'm used to it, though at age 73 I can visualize a not-too-distant time when lugging the big system, putting speakers up on stands, etc. will be too much for me. The Fishman column is a real blessing there, since it's gutsy enough to use outdoors at a farmers' market, or in a 300-seat auditorium, but it transports and sets up real easily. Since for solo gigs I usually bring 3-5 instruments, I do a good deal of fetchin' and carryin'. That's most of the exercise I get. Vehicle-wise, I drive a 2010 Honda Element, and I recommend it as a musician's transporter; too bad Honda quit making them.
    Allen Hopkins
    Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
    Natl Triolian Dobro mando
    Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
    H-O mandolinetto
    Stradolin Vega banjolin
    Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
    Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
    Flatiron 3K OM

  3. The following members say thank you to allenhopkins for this post:


  4. #103

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    My 17 year old son is very involved in music <SNIP>
    at 17 he just doesn't see it as a viable option to build a good life.
    Among his cohort it seems to be the same, numerous very talented & creative youngsters just writing music off as an option for making a living.
    Sounds like you have a very talented and committed son. There's no reason he can't combine music with another career. It's rare, but can be done.

    Denny Zeitlin (born 10 April 1938, in Chicago, Illinois) is an American jazz pianist, composer, and a clinical professor of psychiatry at University of California, San Francisco. Since 1963, he has recorded more than 35 albums, including more than 100 original compositions, and was a first-place winner in the Down Beat International Jazz Critics' Poll in 1965 and 1974. In 2014, JazzTimes contributor Andrew Gilbert wrote that "by any measure, Zeitlin's creative output over the past 50 years places him at jazz's creative zenith."[1]

    (from wikipedia)

  5. The following members say thank you to StuartE for this post:

    Beanzy 

  6. #104

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Youngsters used to dream of being musicians if they had any talent at it (& many without), but there seems to be a disjuncture happening where it's mostly the ones who seek the celebrity side of it who now go forward using the industry to access that,
    I imagine most of the younger generations, still have an interest in fame. In the past, there were a few standard options for this. Sports, music, and film. Each having a few main offshoots that had the opportunity for fame and fortune.

    Even pre-internet, these options were constantly expanding. How many televised sports are there now? How many genres of music? Now factor in the absolute explosion of the internet and it is crazy. There are tens of thousands of ways to be famous on YouTube alone. There are plenty of YouTubers earning more than Hollywood stars or rockstars.

    Video killed the Radio Star. MTV did damage, YouTube is nailing the coffin shut. Most teens that want fame, will be looking to youtube (and rightly so).

    Even on the audio only side. Would someone rather put out an album, or launch a Podcast?
    Go tour around playing bars, or start a travel blog and take off around the world?
    There is now fame in simply being successful. Good at something? You make a course, and promote yourself.

    I have been watching all of this happen and it is mind blowing, how quickly it changed the landscape.
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

  7. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Folkmusician.com For This Useful Post:


  8. #105
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Madison, Ct
    Posts
    2,303

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Yes to Robert's post. If anything, it is far easier now to get exposure, promote yourself, and jump start a career. Here's a story that illustrates what I think Robert's point is.

    I had the pleasure of helping an Irish band get their touring career going in the U.S., maybe 12-13 years ago. They already had international success, and the flutist, Alan Doherty, had done all the wood flute work on the Lord Of The Rings soundtrack. Their name was Grada, and they had just been signed by Compass, and were looking to break into the U.S. Having a common friend, I was happy to help them book their first tour and find an agent. After all these years, they're still my favorite Irish band, live. More so than Solas, Dervish or any, Grada connected like an audience with no other. Anyway, long story short, after 10 years of touring hard, 200+ nights a year, literally all over the world, a few agents changes, playing major festivals, etc., they decided to call it quits. Having become really good friends with the band through the years, to the point where they'd stay at our house for weeks on end while touring New England, they shared with me that after all that, they'd just sold the last of their cd's, and essentially broke even. No big houses, yachts, fancy cars. What they did have was a lifetime of amazing experiences, the opportunity to tour the world, make millions of friends, and at least be able to look back satisfied that they'd made some great music.

    Considering the investment in money and time they had to make, breaking even isn't exactly the measure of success from a strictly financial standpoint. You can achieve the same level of publicity now with a bunch of youtube videos, made in the privacy of your own home.

    So, yeah, music as a career can be filled with the same pitfalls as any other career, but you can make money...maybe. What are the goals of a musician? Money? World peace and happiness? A number of bands I've worked with have a short shellfire, and they didn't seem to care. Their goal was to have fun, travel, have new experiences, and see what happens. If it failed, so what? They had a great time, and are probably better business men and women than may MBA's because if what's entailed in running a touring band.

    So playing for free? If it's the "feel good", community-building and healing powers of music that bring you to playing music, why not play for free? Thousands of doctors every year travel from around the world to take months off their careers to help in poverty-stricken areas, and don't want a dime. If you really want to get upset when someone asks you to play for free, maybe it's time to stop worrying about music as a source of income. Money is an illusory reward anyway, whatever you do make, you'll just blow it on something irrelevant.

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Charlieshafer For This Useful Post:

    PolecatTeak 

  10. #106

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    Yes to Robert's post. If anything, it is far easier now to get exposure, promote yourself, and jump start a career. Here's a story that illustrates what I think Robert's point is.

    I had the pleasure of helping an Irish band get their touring career going in the U.S., maybe 12-13 years ago. They already had international success, and the flutist, Alan Doherty, had done all the wood flute work on the Lord Of The Rings soundtrack. Their name was Grada, and they had just been signed by Compass, and were looking to break into the U.S. Having a common friend, I was happy to help them book their first tour and find an agent. After all these years, they're still my favorite Irish band, live. More so than Solas, Dervish or any, Grada connected like an audience with no other. Anyway, long story short, after 10 years of touring hard, 200+ nights a year, literally all over the world, a few agents changes, playing major festivals, etc., they decided to call it quits. Having become really good friends with the band through the years, to the point where they'd stay at our house for weeks on end while touring New England, they shared with me that after all that, they'd just sold the last of their cd's, and essentially broke even. No big houses, yachts, fancy cars. What they did have was a lifetime of amazing experiences, the opportunity to tour the world, make millions of friends, and at least be able to look back satisfied that they'd made some great music.

    Considering the investment in money and time they had to make, breaking even isn't exactly the measure of success from a strictly financial standpoint. You can achieve the same level of publicity now with a bunch of youtube videos, made in the privacy of your own home.

    So, yeah, music as a career can be filled with the same pitfalls as any other career, but you can make money...maybe. What are the goals of a musician? Money? World peace and happiness? A number of bands I've worked with have a short shellfire, and they didn't seem to care. Their goal was to have fun, travel, have new experiences, and see what happens. If it failed, so what? They had a great time, and are probably better business men and women than may MBA's because if what's entailed in running a touring band.

    So playing for free? If it's the "feel good", community-building and healing powers of music that bring you to playing music, why not play for free? Thousands of doctors every year travel from around the world to take months off their careers to help in poverty-stricken areas, and don't want a dime. If you really want to get upset when someone asks you to play for free, maybe it's time to stop worrying about music as a source of income. Money is an illusory reward anyway, whatever you do make, you'll just blow it on something irrelevant.
    "I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered" - George Best.

  11. #107
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Jackson, CA
    Posts
    208

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Polecat View Post
    We no longer live in a culture that intrinsically values music as a part of social life, and the musician’s role is not that which it has been throughout most of history, so I don’t think the "old rules" apply any more, and I don’t think the term "professional musician" is very helpful - musicians do and always have played for fun as well as for profit, sometimes both at the same time, sometimes only for one or the other. This is not generally true of surgeons, for example, or lawyers, to name just two "professions".
    Personally, I would rather play for a pittance for 20 people who listen and respond than for "real money" for a couple of hundred who treat what I’m offering them like the wallpaper - it’s nice that it’s there but doesn’t really warrant much attention.
    I completely agree. My own children don't care to legitimately support even their favorite artist. They scam, scab, steal, trade, do anything except pay the fair price for music. And this all while completely aware of the near impossibility of a lucrative career in music. Yet do they stand their ethical ground and insist on paying fairly for music? No. They are weak and unethical.

    Welcome to the 21st century.
    Now let's all go over Bob's house and have us a mountain jam of epic proportions. ;-)
    Peace

    Oh and yes some doctors, lawyers, and bands do free things....while their bank accounts bulge from their legitimate pay. Yes some do find time to give away their gifts, but almost without exception, after they've been paid elsewhere.

    That isn't the same as a struggling artist. And it isn't the same when Chris Thile donates a performance either, because no one expects from the beginning for him to perform for free. And nor should they. "The worker deserves his wages."

  12. #108
    Lurkist dhergert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Blue Zone, California
    Posts
    1,867
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Mmm, well, yes, but...

    As said earlier, it is the economy.

    Door number 1 = keep your day job to pay for your musical "hobby" so you can play for free or even pay-to-play when you want to, and maybe get paid sometimes.

    Door number 2 = put everything on hold and maybe risk loosing everything for a 99-to-1 gamble that you'll be able to pay your bills on a musician's fees.

    Door number 3 = get mad and put music on the shelf, and complain about the economy, about free players and free venues, about everything else that seems to have had a relationship to that decision.

    There was a time when I worked at being a full-time bluegrass musician... A dear friend who started and was in a relatively famous bluegrass band in the 70s and 80s once explained it to me:

    Look at an old metal bucket. That is the world of music. Filling most of the bucket are the successful musicians from every genre.

    At the bottom of that bucket, right next to the rust and sand and mold and gunk and all the other debris, are all of the successful bluegrass musicians.

    The people who are trying to be full-time musicians of every genre, but not successfully, and those who have decided to just play music for the fun of it, are the rust and sand and gunk and all the other debris; when you turn the bucket over and empty it, most of them stick to the bottom of the bucket; music is a part of them, and they are a part of music.

    It is really about competition. If you can't or won't compete with the other successful bands and also with all the people who just play music for the fun of it, maybe that's just the nature of music telling you to keep your day job and enjoy music on the side.

    Music is going to continue, as it always has, in the hearts of those who love it. You can't suppress it. It will come out on the back porches or in the barns and garages, in the showers, on the road, on the trail, in the elevator or in the bathroom, in the dorms and classrooms and churches and hospitals, in the farms and ranches and factories and offices, inside those whistling or breathing tunes all day long at work or at play, in all the places where it always has existed. If there is ever a time when money for music doesn't exist anymore, music will continue.
    -- Don

    "Music: A minor auditory irritation occasionally characterized as pleasant."
    "It is a lot more fun to make music than it is to argue about it."


    2002 Gibson F-9
    2016 MK LFSTB
    1975 Suzuki taterbug (plus many other noisemakers)
    [About how I tune my mandolins]
    [Our recent arrival]

  13. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to dhergert For This Useful Post:


  14. #109
    F5G & MD305 Astro's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Charleston SC
    Posts
    2,494

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Music, golf, surfing, snow skiing, sail boat racing, art, pottery, or anything else that a lot of people enjoy doing as a fun hobby or creative outlet and as a passionate big part of their life -- anything like that is a difficult occupation to make a decent living out of. Only a very tiny % ever will. How many passionate and talented golfers are able to make a living from golf? You dont hear them complaining that people and society suck because they dont want to pay to watch them play. They just happily keep playing and make money elsewhere. Most artists and writers know they will never make money from it. Its just something they have to do. They dont blame anyone.

    In a way, the huge numbers of obscure musicians are really lucky to make the little bit we do. How many artists, writers, or golfers can go do what they love for a few hours on a weekend night, get applause, beer, and come home with an extra 50-100 bucks?

    Actually, we are lucky.

    (shhh-doesn't mean I wont keep complaining)
    No matter where I go, there I am...Unless I'm running a little late.

  15. The following members say thank you to Astro for this post:


  16. #110
    Registered User Bad Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    178

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    there's a huge difference in playing music for fun and community building, and working as an employee/contractor at a for-profit business. If someone wants me to play at their place of business to help them make a profit, I want to get payed.

  17. The following members say thank you to Bad Monkey for this post:


  18. #111
    F5G & MD305 Astro's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Charleston SC
    Posts
    2,494

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Monkey View Post
    there's a huge difference in playing music for fun and community building, and working as an employee/contractor at a for-profit business. If someone wants me to play at their place of business to help them make a profit, I want to get payed.
    I agree completely. Doesn't mean there is much of a market for your services though. I mean not for a comfortable living wage.
    No matter where I go, there I am...Unless I'm running a little late.

  19. The following members say thank you to Astro for this post:


  20. #112
    Registered User Bad Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    178

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Then best start practicing.

    nothing wrong with it being a part time job, either.

  21. The following members say thank you to Bad Monkey for this post:

    Astro 

  22. #113

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    In a way, the huge numbers of obscure musicians are really lucky to make the little bit we do. How many artists, writers, or golfers can go do what they love for a few hours on a weekend night, get applause, beer, and come home with an extra 50-100 bucks?
    Great point!

    While Golf is a great sport and the little bit I have played was quite enjoyable, you would have to pay me quite a bit to sit and watch a game. I guess that honestly goes for a lot of music too though.

    A few weeks ago, Someone from Saga was over here and I met with them at the Atlantas Casino. We were up by a restaurant in a nice sitting area. It happens we are by a Grand Piano. A couple of Girls sit down and start noodling. It slowly comes together and pretty soon people are gathering around. A couple more join in and within a few minutes they start nailing down harmonies and sound great. It almost brought tears to my eyes. I was incredibly impressed, but after a couple of songs, we got up and moved. While it was great, we were in the middle of a discussions on the musical instrument industry and the performance was a distraction.

    I even feel guilty about it, but it doesn't change the fact, that we left the area due to live music.
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

  23. The following members say thank you to Folkmusician.com for this post:

    Astro 

  24. #114

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    A lot of thoughts come to mind. As my dear departed father would say, often in exasperation, "there didn't used to be this many people!" Often used to explain what was wrong with the current state of the world, just as often used when he was driving out of town in heavy traffic.....

    By that I mean, there was a time when not everybody played music, at least on a semi-competent level. There was also a time when rock'n'roll was something new that could be marketed and sold. I guess my version of my father's catch-phrase would be something like, "it ain't 1965, no more!"

    I had two friends in the 60's who did pretty well with music, both as teenagers. One had a local band who did very well at covering the Rolling Stones and that was enough to be booked regularly throughout the state, often playing two or three shows at a local roller rink and his band would make $3000 on a good weekend. (Yep, that's $3000 in 1965 money!!!) When he was in high school he made more than his dad did. He drove a brand new Ford Mustang. The other guy did EVEN BETTER. Quit high school to sing and record and had a #1 and a #2 hit record, as well as several other Top 40 hits. Both had a life most of us would only dream of, but unfortunately it was pretty much over for both of them after 4 or 5 years, as far as the big money was concerned. But having been bitten by the bug, both stuck at it for the next 40+ years hoping lightning would strike twice. It never did for them, money-wise. Both were very talented and made some great music in their latter years, but I think early success was a curse for both of them. I say that as a person who tried and tried to get my "foot in the door" but never got past the first or second rung of the ladder in the music business. I have often wondered if it was better to have had early success and had it fizzle or to never have had the success and but kept the dream of having it alive?

    I can't speak for the music scene of today, as I don't understand much about it. Sure, you can have a million hits on youtube if you are popular, but that still doesn't make you a millionaire, does it?
    Last edited by Jeff Mando; May-28-2017 at 5:03pm.

  25. The following members say thank you to Jeff Mando for this post:

    Astro 

  26. #115

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    So playing for free? If it's the "feel good", community-building and healing powers of music that bring you to playing music, why not play for free? Thousands of doctors every year travel from around the world to take months off their careers to help in poverty-stricken areas, and don't want a dime. If you really want to get upset when someone asks you to play for free, maybe it's time to stop worrying about music as a source of income. Money is an illusory reward anyway, whatever you do make, you'll just blow it on something irrelevant.
    Well put, Charlie!
    "Those who know don't have the words to tell, and the ones with the words don't know so well." - Bruce Cockburn

  27. The following members say thank you to Teak for this post:


  28. #116

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jshane View Post
    Well-- after reading all 85 comments- and understanding the validity of the points raised in the vast majority of them...

    I find myself feeling depressed that EVERYTHING in our culture and society has transmogrified into revolving around money/business/and profit to the virtual exclusion of everything else.

    I get it, I suppose.... but I also remember that it wasn't always so completely and exclusively this way. I hope, at least for my kids sake-- and their kids sake-- that we can find a way to make "the economy" a little less of the monotheistic religion it has become.

    Think I'll go play my mandolin....
    The thing is though it isn't about money. It's about basically doing what's right for everyone involved. If things aren't balanced then it doesn't work.

    I realise that's a vague response but each situation is different and there is no magic formula.

    In my experience in sessions it's considered poor form if players don't get a drink on the house as acknowledgement for providing free entertainment, especially as musicians will spend money over the piece, making it a win win for the publican. Unless the players are terrible obviously!

    On the gig side of things it's worth doing as long as you enjoy it. If it doesn't pay and you don't have a problem with it then fine, but if you do then change whatever it is you're doing wrong.

  29. #117
    F5G & MD305 Astro's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Charleston SC
    Posts
    2,494

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    Sure, you can have a million hits on youtube if you are popular, but that still doesn't make you a millionaire, does it?
    Nope. Not unless it links to marketers and sells something else.
    No matter where I go, there I am...Unless I'm running a little late.

  30. #118
    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Augusta, Maine, USA
    Posts
    1,814

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Welcome to the Amateur Age. Artists are dime a dozen these days.

    I'm not a pro. My friends and I occasionally get paid, but we usually play for free - for parties, for nonprofit fundraisers, for open mics and jams, and just for fun.

    I like getting paid, but I don't mind playing for free. There are, however a few things I DO mind:

    - When they promise to feed you, then don't.
    - When there's a cash bar and no one offers to buy the band beer. (I usually say no, but I always appreciate the offer.)
    - When they treat you like hired help, even though you're not.

    This is a rural state. We sometimes drive over an hour to get to these things. I mean, come on!

  31. #119

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    1. I'm not necessarily "good at business," but ...
    Sounds a lot like business to me. No doubt you are good at it. (I'm terrible at it - my brain doesn't work well in those functions)

    ... 2010 Honda Element, and I recommend it as a musician's transporter..
    I had a minivan - thought it was the pinnacle. Super good.


    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    ...Actually, we are lucky.
    Indeed. To ply a trade that has overt social value, is quite versatile, etc.

    Times are indeed different. Business and social habits are changing and outpacing our 'grasp' just as is technology. Still, from an ecological purview it isn't difficult to understand dynamics if we take the trouble to be analytical.

  32. The following members say thank you to catmandu2 for this post:


  33. #120
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Iowa City, Iowa
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I've seen enough to realize that a lot of you are giving it away. Some of us think of this as a problem. First off, you're being taken advantage of. It doesn't matter how much you want to get on stage, if you do it for nothing you set a precedent not only for your band and yourself, but create expectations that anyone playing hillbilly (or Celtic, etc.) music should play for free.

    More than 40 years of gigging has made me realize that people are, by and large, tone deaf. The typical listener can't discern good songs played well from raw beginners scratching at banjos and mandolins. If you don't think you music has any value, ask yourself why someone wants you to play music for their event or at their business. It doesn't matter if you are new at this or seasoned pros, your time has value. If you also provide sound, check what PA rentals cost in your area and charge, at the very least, the price of equipment rental and set-up--plus the fact that someone has to run that PA.

    It's hard enough getting paid a decent wage without constantly being undercut by bands playing for nothing. While I love to play, and jam frequently with whoever wants to pick, I'm careful about undermining myself and the many players in my neck of the woods who make all or part of their living from playing gigs.

    My sister is a harpist living in Dallas, Texas who has been a gigging pro and studio musician for around 50 years. She has toured with Sinatra and played with everyone from opera companies to The Moody Blues. A couple of weeks ago someone asked her to play a gig for $75. After she regained her composure she explained that union rules didn't allow her to move a harp for less than a hundred bucks, much less play a gig. Too many players in her market are playing for little or nothing and devaluing working pros. She has taken a day job teaching college students about music for the first time in her life since the music scene is full of players working for less than their time is worth.

    In my woodworking business I charge an hourly rate of $60/hr, which is far less than an auto mechanic or plumber charges around here. Using that as a guide, I can gauge the value of my time and try to charge accordingly, taking into account drive time, equipment, and the actual time spent playing.

    Sure playing on stage can be fun, but I can stay home and watch TV if I want to NOT make money. If I'm overcome by the urge to pick, I'll find someone who wants to jam or pick up an instrument a play by myself.
    Last edited by Warren H; May-28-2017 at 6:38pm. Reason: Spelling

  34. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Warren H For This Useful Post:


  35. #121
    Lurkist dhergert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Blue Zone, California
    Posts
    1,867
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren H View Post
    ...
    Sure playing on stage can be fun, but I can stay home and watch TV if I want to NOT make money. If I'm overcome by the urge to pick, I'll find someone who wants to jam or pick up an instrument a play by myself.
    Just more musing. And I'm saying this respectfully and gently to you and to others who feel this way...

    So what I hear you saying is that you don't want to compete with people who play for free then. That is anti-competitive in my book. The point of competition is to rise above competitors by offering more than they can offer to the people who pay for the product. If a person is doing music full time, they have time to discover and cultivate those things to offer. I'd suggest that is the solution.

    Of course many of us agree that at least part of the problem is that the pie is getting smaller and smaller by virtue of economics and by virtue of the number of people who want the pie. Maybe a day job teaching college about music is an excellent solution. Of course it could be said that teaching may create more people who eventually want the pie, but generations do exchange roles over time.

    As someone who does play for free when I want to, and who also has a day job so I don't have to worry about pay for music, I'd say that's the ideal way to do it -- just for fun. For me, if I didn't enjoy doing it just for fun, I wouldn't want to do it. This does have caveats though... I never get as much practice as I'd like, I'm not 100% free to schedule any gig because I do work a day job, and lately, I have limited energy for night and weekend jobs. But still, that would be my mode of choice. I tried the full-time music direction, and it took all the fun out of doing music for me. Sitting at home and watching TV instead of playing music -- by choice whether for free or for pay -- would be a horrible endpoint for me.

    And at the same time, there are those artists who do rise above our level and actually make it doing music full time. We here and in other communities know their names and their products, and we love them for what they do and how amazingly well they do it, and we don't begrudge them their fair share of the pie.
    -- Don

    "Music: A minor auditory irritation occasionally characterized as pleasant."
    "It is a lot more fun to make music than it is to argue about it."


    2002 Gibson F-9
    2016 MK LFSTB
    1975 Suzuki taterbug (plus many other noisemakers)
    [About how I tune my mandolins]
    [Our recent arrival]

  36. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dhergert For This Useful Post:


  37. #122

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    I can't speak for the music scene of today, as I don't understand much about it. Sure, you can have a million hits on youtube if you are popular, but that still doesn't make you a millionaire, does it?
    A million hits gets you very, very little. $1000 (give or take) in advertising revenue, and the chance to do more valuable marketing. So maybe a million hits can be worth several thousand. This seems terrible, until you realize that a million hits is not many in the YouTube world and it all compounds. A band that did their homework, could make a whole lot more targeting Youtube, than they can playing gigs. This is before they launch a Patreon account and also do Kickstarter for new albums. Crowdfunding works.

    You start getting a significant amount of views on YouTube, now manufacturers will be wanting to give you instruments for product placement. If you are big enough, you can charge. It doesn't stop there.. clothing, beverages, etc..

    Once you have the following, you now launch into ecommerce and start selling merchandise. The list goes on and on.

    I am not talking about some major band here. You don't even have to be good. You just need video skills, marketing skills and take the time to study it. Past YouTube, you don't have to do any marketing at all. If you are getting the views, everyone will try to be part of it. Link to your Facebook page, and BAM, hundreds of thousands of people click over. Same for your Crowdfunding.

    Many of the views will be from people that don't like what you are doing, but can't help but watch. A good portion will be from other musician's trying to figure out why you are so popular, when they are better musicians. Does't matter, as it still helps you.

    It is not just heading there, it is already there! The business model has changed. Musicians can earn a good living without gigging, but they have to rethink it and embrace the change.

    Of course, once you do this, then you have the fan base to get good paying gigs. But the initial effort is better utilized attacking YouTube.
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

  38. The following members say thank you to Folkmusician.com for this post:


  39. #123

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Warren, one thing though - like everything else in this fast changing socioeconomic world, the work force/musician too must adapt to changing conditions. For example, there are many opportunities now that formerly either didn't exist or were more rare - clinical settings, film/video/mixed-media, 'guesting'/various appearances, education (as you'd mentioned), etc. No, it isn't Sinatra, but modes change (how long has it been since folks have been able to expect to be paid playing, for example, bluegrass, except for a wedding or holiday event or something, etc?). I've seen many very good players spend some hours busking very successfully (I know harp isn't very convenient for busking).

  40. The following members say thank you to catmandu2 for this post:


  41. #124
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Madison, Ct
    Posts
    2,303

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren H View Post
    More than 40 years of gigging has made me realize that people are, by and large, tone deaf. The typical listener can't discern good songs played well from raw beginners scratching at banjos and mandolins.

    It's hard enough getting paid a decent wage without constantly being undercut by bands playing for nothing.

    .
    Like Don, I'd like to be as respectful as possible here, but statements like this bother me. I think the general public has a very good ear, in general. It's why the cream rises to the top. If there was no general ability to appreciate talent, there would be no Chris Thile, no David Grisman, no Beatles or Rolling stones, no icons in any form of music. It's why people who aren't educated at all in classical music always perk up when they hear something by Mozart, or the "Ode To Joy." It's why there are craft beers, artisanal foods, or any niche, exclusive product. It's also why any musician even pretending to want to "make it" needs to totally understand modern marketing.

    The most interesting problem here, and in other posts, is the complaint about being undercut by bands playing for nothing. That immediately puts an economic ranking on the product, and I know the word "competition" has been used before, correctly. People, as in an audience, and businesses who are looking to make more money, will gladly pay for perceived value. Every time. If a business doesn't feel that your product is worth the extra money, and won't help them make more money, they're not buying from you. Period. In this case, you're simply not adding any value above what a guy willing to work for less brings to the table. You need to be have a better product, that simple. Same goes for the folks buying concert tickets. I'll pay $100 to go see someone truly special, perhaps a classical soloist of renown, or a great band. But I'd have a hard time paying $20 to go see some new band or performer that may have potential, but still doesn't have the skills or resume yet.

    I also find it interesting that most of the people complaining about being pushed out are those that have been playing for a long time. Perhaps it's a simple case of missing the boat in terms of how you make a living in music now. But, as I said before, the skill level of the younger players is now so much higher than the generation before, I find it very difficult to book the older players and expect an audience to show up like they would for some of the younger, more original and skilled players. There's just not the excitement level for the same old stuff anymore.

    This sounds harsh, but of your competition for gigs is those who play for free, you need to completely reevaluate your business model. You're either trying to sell your skills to the wrong customers, or your skills aren't right for the new world we're in.

  42. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Charlieshafer For This Useful Post:


  43. #125

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    I have a day job. Being a musician is a hobby. I sometimes play at the farmer's market with some other people. Yesterday we made lettuce, cabbage and real money. About $75 for about 3 hours of playing. In addition to lettuce, cabbage and real money, we also got garlic, kale, radishes and honey. Pretty awesome. Sometimes we play for other gigs and get free potluck and sometimes we get food, booze AND money. Sometimes all we get is fun, usually when the gig has to do with children. That's good enough for me.

    I've recorded a CD. What an awful experience. That's work and work sucks. Even playing for three hours straight is work. Standing up like that hurts my feet after a while, and all that strumming and picking hurts my shoulders and trying to stay "on" and not get sloppy hurts my brain. Being a musician as a career would not be fun at all. Nevermind fame, which would ruin your whole life. Why would anybody want to be a musician??? A friend of mine actually IS a musician, but she's a card-carrying member of a union. You'd have to be in a union in order to survive the mental, physical and spiritual exploitation. It's hard work but people think it's FUN so they think they can just ask you to do whatever they want and pay you very little. It's not fun when it's work. It's fun when it's fun.

    So that's why I limit myself to busking and playing gigs for various good causes that pay us in potluck dinner.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •