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Thread: Play for free ...

  1. #76
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    Such musicians exist, but normally an agreement can be arrived at, as long as it's reliable.
    It's more a question of time scale: just like eating customers like to know in advance if they will get a seat before driving miles and miles, so will musicians. The danger of suddenly being rushed out in a matter of minutes is something I would not put up with.
    I'm assuming that the being rushed out was a one-time thing with the change in management. After that, everyone knew the score. Regardless, you're not the business owner, so "not putting up with it" is the business owner's prerogative, not ours.

    Tobin is exactly right, though. The musicians who act entitled don't do anyone a favor. We need places to play, and "attitude" doesn't endear us to anyone. You can run a very successful club or bar without live music, so the fewer chances we as a group give owners a chance to give up on us the better. It's why a few local places have dropped live music through the years; late to soundchecks, wanting food or free beverages, especially on a slow night, playing too loud, taking too many breaks. I've heard the complaints from more than a few owners. They go to open mics, and the crowds are bigger, everyone is smiling, and business is better.

    As a musician, you can't make an argument for being a great value unless you increase the bottom line above and beyond what your fee is. Arguments saying that the ambience live music creates don't wash from the standpoint of a business. If a business owner is willing to lose money having you play, why should you be so insistent on getting a certain amount of pay? You become a charity, in the eyes of the business...

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  3. #77

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Reading your post Charlie - brings back a memory..i remember one night in a band and a club where we were popular - it was surprisingly very slow - I felt reticent when we took our cut. They cheerfully provided throughout the night as usual though - total pros and a great place to play.

    About how the scene can go wrong: I don't recall where or with whom as was long ago - one night the jammers come in (to a virtually empty room), deploy in their usual places, and several immediately sidle up to the bar and start ordering (provided gratis by the club). One of those times I'd wished I wasn't present.
    Last edited by catmandu2; May-26-2017 at 1:18pm.

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  5. #78
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    "not putting up with it" is the business owner's prerogative, not ours.
    Of course, but the decision to not attend is still ours. That's all I'm saying. I wouldn't complain, I'd just not go. This is about session, not gig, and playing on my toes, ready for egress, would kill the fun for me.

    Fun, OTOH, is no substitute for quality. If the sessioneers play well, enough customers will like it enough to keep up the financial foundation. If not, well...
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

  6. #79

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Just for the record, has anyone arrived at the gig expecting to be paid, only to discover you ain't?

  7. #80

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    We've made the place a lot of money and brought in many new customers over the years, and established the place as a session venue in the country, where other session musicians seek out the place. This session is of pretty good quality.

    Obviously I'm not objecting to the place looking after number one, but when you turf out the players regularly when people have traveled miles to get there and planned their day around it then it can be an issue, especially when you're asked to play outside in the winter.

    The fact their advertising revolves around this session is also a problem.

    Believe me there is no sense of entitlement on my part. I've played in many sessions and know how these things work. They work when there is a balance, communication, and manners on all sides. When that breaks down then the session is finished.
    Last edited by leftus maximus; May-26-2017 at 1:58pm. Reason: Mistake

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  9. #81
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Well, I'm off tonight to play with my friend Jim Clare on the porch of the Gridley Inn in Waterloo NY. "Tip jar" only; I'll let ya know how it goes. Waterloo is the "birthplace of Memorial Day," usually a lot of people milling around over this weekend. We'll see...
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  11. #82
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Musicians just have to learn to choose. Do you want to not get paid or not work ?
    Sometimes it's nice to give your time for a benefit if it's a good cause! Our band has done this on numerous occasions and it led to more paying jobs!

  12. #83
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by billkilpatrick View Post
    Just for the record, has anyone arrived at the gig expecting to be paid, only to discover you ain't?
    Twice, decades ago, when I was playing in a band:
    #1 a publican told us our performance had been so pathetic he couldn't spend the money (and he had a point - that was the gig after which we fired our guitarist)
    #2 a festival organizer told us he had totally miscalculated the costs and was out of money - after we played.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

  13. #84

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    Twice, decades ago, when I was playing in a band:
    #1 a publican told us our performance had been so pathetic he couldn't spend the money (and he had a point - that was the gig after which we fired our guitarist)
    #2 a festival organizer told us he had totally miscalculated the costs and was out of money - after we played.
    Ugh … that's awful. I don't believe there's a great reckoning that awaits us on high … but for some, I trust the instant of death will be very long, very lucid and very uncomfortable.

  14. #85
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by billkilpatrick View Post
    Ugh … that's awful. I don't believe there's a great reckoning that awaits us on high … but for some, I trust the instant of death will be very long, very lucid and very uncomfortable.
    Some, they say, are damned. But you, I know, will walk the streets of Paradise, head high and unashamed.
    (James Plunkett, Strumpet City)
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

  15. #86

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Well-- after reading all 85 comments- and understanding the validity of the points raised in the vast majority of them...

    I find myself feeling depressed that EVERYTHING in our culture and society has transmogrified into revolving around money/business/and profit to the virtual exclusion of everything else.

    I get it, I suppose.... but I also remember that it wasn't always so completely and exclusively this way. I hope, at least for my kids sake-- and their kids sake-- that we can find a way to make "the economy" a little less of the monotheistic religion it has become.

    Think I'll go play my mandolin....

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  17. #87
    Registered User Frankdolin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jshane View Post
    Well-- after reading all 85 comments- and understanding the validity of the points raised in the vast majority of them...

    I find myself feeling depressed that EVERYTHING in our culture and society has transmogrified into revolving around money/business/and profit to the virtual exclusion of everything else.

    I get it, I suppose.... but I also remember that it wasn't always so completely and exclusively this way. I hope, at least for my kids sake-- and their kids sake-- that we can find a way to make "the economy" a little less of the monotheistic religion it has become.

    Think I'll go play my mandolin....
    Well said my friend, well said.

  18. #88
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jshane View Post

    I find myself feeling depressed that EVERYTHING in our culture and society has transmogrified into revolving around money/business/and profit to the virtual exclusion of everything else.

    I get it, I suppose.... but I also remember that it wasn't always so completely and exclusively this way. I hope, at least for my kids sake-- and their kids sake-- that we can find a way to make "the economy" a little less of the monotheistic religion it has become.
    .
    Ah, but it isn't. It's just different, like pretty much everything else in this new century. Music has simply gone to the internet for the young who are just starting out. The days where a band would play a local club, build a following, and hope to make a demo, get some local airplay, and go big are long gone. That's ok with me as a presenter.

    You can say that the younger audience now has their heads buried in their phones, and yeah, it's too much for my taste, but when I hear them talk about what they're looking at, at least musically, it's far more broad in taste and genres than we ever had it. I've got high school kids in the fiddle club who are always showing me videos of the "next big thing" that a friend that they met on vacation, who may live in California, is sending to them. So I'm getting high-def video of a young string band just starting out, in he middle of nowhere, 3000 miles away. And they're good. And I hope they stick with it long enough that I can bring them east.

    So what's happened is that the younger generation aren't hanging out in a bar just to listen to music, they're going for the social interaction, swapping stories. Open mics are fun for them because they're part of the action, not just a beer swigging spectator. If a venue does have a live band they go to see, once they see it, great, no need to see them again. I find an interesting demographic trend occurring in that if I have a band come through the first time, it'll be a mix of young and old. If I bring them back a second time, when one would think attendance would increase as I'm "building their brand" and word of mouth spreads, the opposite actually happens. Older folks will return, but the number of 20-somethings and younger drops precipitously. They've been there, done that.

    I'm thinking this is, in part, what the bars that cater to local bands are changing. The young demographic, which is the money-spending set, isn't into the same thing over and over, it's all about discovery. There are only so many local bands that can play a bar, and once they've been around the block, it's time to move on.

    Like everything else, it's always changing, time to adapt yet again. But depressing? No way, there's more great stuff out there than I've ever seen. And doors are opening to them in ways that never happened before. Yes, you can make some money playing acoustic music, but you have to travel, and play unconventional venues.

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  20. #89
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jshane View Post
    find myself feeling depressed that EVERYTHING in our culture and society has transmogrified into revolving around money/business/and profit...
    Well, the thread title says Play for free, it does not say Play in vain. Because we never do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by jshane View Post
    Think I'll go play my mandolin....
    That's exactly the right thing to do.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

  21. #90
    Scroll Lock Austin Bob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    Ah, but it isn't. It's just different, like pretty much everything else in this new century. Music has simply gone to the internet for the young who are just starting out. The days where a band would play a local club, build a following, and hope to make a demo, get some local airplay, and go big are long gone. That's ok with me as a presenter.

    You can say that the younger audience now has their heads buried in their phones, and yeah, it's too much for my taste, but when I hear them talk about what they're looking at, at least musically, it's far more broad in taste and genres than we ever had it. I've got high school kids in the fiddle club who are always showing me videos of the "next big thing" that a friend that they met on vacation, who may live in California, is sending to them. So I'm getting high-def video of a young string band just starting out, in he middle of nowhere, 3000 miles away. And they're good. And I hope they stick with it long enough that I can bring them east.

    So what's happened is that the younger generation aren't hanging out in a bar just to listen to music, they're going for the social interaction, swapping stories. Open mics are fun for them because they're part of the action, not just a beer swigging spectator. If a venue does have a live band they go to see, once they see it, great, no need to see them again. I find an interesting demographic trend occurring in that if I have a band come through the first time, it'll be a mix of young and old. If I bring them back a second time, when one would think attendance would increase as I'm "building their brand" and word of mouth spreads, the opposite actually happens. Older folks will return, but the number of 20-somethings and younger drops precipitously. They've been there, done that.

    I'm thinking this is, in part, what the bars that cater to local bands are changing. The young demographic, which is the money-spending set, isn't into the same thing over and over, it's all about discovery. There are only so many local bands that can play a bar, and once they've been around the block, it's time to move on.

    Like everything else, it's always changing, time to adapt yet again. But depressing? No way, there's more great stuff out there than I've ever seen. And doors are opening to them in ways that never happened before. Yes, you can make some money playing acoustic music, but you have to travel, and play unconventional venues.
    Good observation Charlie. The world is changing faster than we can ever imagine, even if we try to stay on top of things. I work in technology, and there are 1000's of ideas out there, any one of which could be the next big thing. It is extremely hard to keep up because it is so technical in nature.

    I'm a baby boomer, and like most of us, the small towns we grew up in are not the same. Gone is the downtown commerce center, local factories and many other things. It is depressing for me to go back home.

    Don't get me started on retail. We often discuss the music stores here, but every single business sector has had to either adapt and change, or die. I could fill a very long post with big, household brand names that are no longer around, or on their last legs.

    I won't be around in 100 years, but I sometimes think about what the world will be like. I wonder if the people who end up playing the instruments I have now will even know the musical heritage that inspired me to play them.
    Last edited by Austin Bob; May-27-2017 at 10:42am.
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  22. #91
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Well, I'm off tonight to play with my friend Jim Clare on the porch of the Gridley Inn in Waterloo NY. "Tip jar" only; I'll let ya know how it goes. Waterloo is the "birthplace of Memorial Day," usually a lot of people milling around over this weekend. We'll see...
    Post-performance report: Jim got sick, so I did the gig solo (no mandolin, sorry). Small crowd at the bed-and-breakfast, but I did get to play for an actor impersonating Theodore Roosevelt. In his honor, I did White House Blues -- "Roosevelt's in the White House, doing his best/McKinley's in the graveyard, taking his rest" -- and Battleship of Maine.

    Bottom line: $59.00 in tips, balanced against a 90-mile 'round trip for a 90-minute gig, including setting up my Fishman SA-220, mic and other paraphernalia. Glad, in retrospect, that we didn't need to split the take!

    So you see why I'm not doing it for a living...
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  24. #92

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    While $59 is by no means enough to justify it from a professional standpoint, if it was a small crowd, it is a respectable amount and I would in no way feel taken advantage of.
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  26. #93

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Folkmusician.com View Post
    While $59 is by no means enough to justify it from a professional standpoint, if it was a small crowd, it is a respectable amount and I would in no way feel taken advantage of.
    Still … 60 bucks for 4+ hours driving and 90 minutes of music is pretty discouraging. Playing for free is perfectly acceptable if you (a) want to do it and (b) aren't made to feel exploited by doing so. I used to play with a group of medieval singers/musicians in town but the buzz wore off when it started to seem like work - unpaid work at that. If I had studied and worked on a repertoire - had an "act" - I'd be very put out if someone asked me to perform for nothing - not just disappointed but insulted as well.

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  28. #94

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    If we break it down to shear monetary terms, sure, such pay for the hours expended is peanuts. A person can likely equal or surpass this much if they picked a good street corner. So, why do we do it? Obviously it's more than a pecuniary motivation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    ...Making people want to play or dance like you is not enough, they must want to be like you, their lives must feel dreary and empty without you.
    Perhaps. But I'm not as aware of this potential, if it exists, as I am the music itself being the catalyst, the 'kinetic' symbol of transference/transcendence. I seek performing opportunities as I witness the effects that music evokes in people. It's an irrational basis, in terms of its pecuniary justification, yet it is a very strong compulsion. I guess, in addition to all the other things I derive from music, it is most fundamentally a mode of communication. This is why money is an afterthought in my music-making. Since I'm not a professional nor working hard at it (other than my natural inclination), I have the luxury of this orientation.

  29. #95
    F5G & MD305 Astro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    I occasionally participate in a "jam group" of very talented music friends. This occurs on the front porch of a very popular restaurant. All the folks who show up play in various bands around town but we do this one for fun and because we like to play together. The quality of music is sometimes better than what is playing next door under a 5 dollar cover. We get lots of spectators. We do not put out a tip jar and we do not get paid but we never have to buy a drink. We are not working and have no agreement with the restaurant. We show up if we want and start when we please and break whenever. We do it for us and its my favorite thing to do.

    On the other hand, I will not do a show or a gig for free. I do 2-3 gigs per week with a fun band. But that is work. Set lists, coordinating with band members, playing what others want to hear, staying halfway sober, hauling stands and mics and sometimes the whole PA. No way. Gigs dont pay much here but most of the places we play now have some kind of house PA. When we have to bring ours, I often ask myself why we are doing it. Its a lot of work. No way doing that for free.

    So I guess my answer is, yes I will play for free when its play(my terms). BUT no I will not gig for free.
    No matter where I go, there I am...Unless I'm running a little late.

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  31. #96
    Registered User Bad Monkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    our usual line is "we play because we love it, but it's gonna cost something to have us hump gear, set up, and tear down."

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  33. #97

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    ... I will play for free when its play(my terms). BUT no I will not gig for free.
    That's succinctly put pretty much my credo too I guess. At my age, I'm less inclined to work at it, and just look to venues where I can play as I would at home - just sharing my joy. I've done it too a lot of ways, but hit upon this as natural selection I guess. When I was younger, I was more willing to compromise

    But I certainly understand folks who put a lot of craft into it. I've done my share of that, and I guess reap the benefits there from.

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  35. #98
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Folkmusician.com View Post
    ...I would in no way feel taken advantage of...
    And I don't. Today I did a one-hour job at a seniors' residence eight miles away, for $55.00. Tomorrow a similar performance on the other side of the city, for $60.00. No PA other than my little Amp Can, minimal set-up and take-down. Wednesday, another seniors' assisted living apartment complex, patriotic songs (Memorial Day theme), $100.00 for that. Friday and Saturday, two days of 19th-century music at Granger Homestead in Canandaigua, school kids Friday, general public Saturday, $100.00 each (four-hour) day.

    This is how it goes. Annual bookings run $15K-20K or so. "Big jobs," when I bring in other musicians, are infrequent, but the seniors' gigs and the historical programs are pretty steady. I have 157 gigs on the books for 2017, and doubtless will get 30-40 more bookings before year's end. It's sorta like a "job," except it's playing music, so it's fun as well.

    And there are freebies scattered among the paying gigs, if they seem interesting and worthwhile. Having the paid jobs makes me more accepting of non-paying gigs, since I don't feel "exploited," and taking or not taking the free jobs is my choice; I'm not desperate to get chances to play, plenty of those already.

    Just glad I don't have to buy the groceries or pay the cable bill out of what I make playing music.
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  37. #99

    Default Re: Play for free ...

    With a schedule like that, I would need a clerk to schedule, organize me, load and unload the car.. I gave it up just when I thought I wanted a roadie! ;0. I hate this stuff, but I'm a lousy business guy. You're no doubt good at it and don't mind it.

    Curious, do most of the venues you play have stands, mics and stuff? Many of the larger places have that stuff and amps/PA too - which alleviated much of the gear-hauling. That was a nice thing. Some folks use headset mics which is a good solution for that -

  38. #100
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Play for free ...

    Interesting to see how this state of affairs affects the choices of youngsters. My 17 year old son is very involved in music, playing across the country. Even singing at the first night of the proms this year, touring in Italy with his jazz orchestra then returning for another Albert Hall concert this time playing violin, he also does college gigs with his rock band, and plays trombone in yet another jazz orchestra. Anyway for all that his life revolves around music, he says he'd never consider being a musician to earn a living. He want's to study Physics or Astro Engineering when he leaves school.
    Even having grade 8 violin & trombone under his belt and a BTec in music & studying composition as an extra curricular course plus being a pretty slick guitarist, at 17 he just doesn't see it as a viable option to build a good life.
    Among his cohort it seems to be the same, numerous very talented & creative youngsters just writing music off as an option for making a living.
    Youngsters used to dream of being musicians if they had any talent at it (& many without), but there seems to be a disjuncture happening where it's mostly the ones who seek the celebrity side of it who now go forward using the industry to access that, but those pursuing the skills don't see it as viable.
    Is the industry eating it's own tail with this free music culture? Maybe I'm being unduly concerned.
    Eoin



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