Pentatonic scales over which major scales?

[stringalong]

Hi All I can find out about pentatonic scales is that "The C pentatonic [major, for instance] is played over the C major scale." i.e. the key of the pentatonic is played with the major scale of same key...I wonder if there are other scales the pentatonic can be played over/with? There are some notes in the pentatonic that don't harmonize with other notes that are in the same-key major scale. I thought pentatonic scales were supposed to harmonize 100% with a key scale?

[Joseph Baker]

"There are some notes in the pentatonic that don't harmonize with other notes that are in the same-key major scale. I thought pentatonic scales were supposed to harmonize 100% with a key scale?"

The advantage of a pentatonic scale is that it does fit with all chords in a song or tune.
I can no longer find the original thread, but I copied the following from a thread on pentatonics several years ago:

Why pentatonic? The notes that are removed are notes that are not common to all 3 scales of the I,IV,V progression. For example if playing in G the chords are G,C,and D. So in the D scale there is a C# whereas G and C have a natural C in their scale. Toss out the C. G and D have F# but C does not, so toss out the F# What remains is the G pentatonic scale. Since it contains only notes that are common to all 3 scales in the progression it contains no sour notes. Given some are sweeter than others but there are no stinkers. In addition the fretboard scale patterns for pentatonics are easy to learn,almost boring, and once you have them you are on your way to the races.

So a pentatonic scale in C, for instance will harmonize with the chords C, F, & G

Joseph Baker

[David Lewis]

Mel bay has an excellent book on using the oentatonic scale.

After you've exhausted the tonic over tonic (c over c) try a g over c. The notes you use are all diatonic to the scale. G A B D E.

Then try others. It gets very interesting. A B min pentatonic over C gives you locrian moods.

In your initial exploration Stick to diatonics. So Maj, min, min, maj, maj, min, dim (though in this case minor will work with judicious fingering)

Have fun with it.

[RonEllison]

The problem with an over dependency on scales and scales theory is that you lose the focus on sound. If you are making music the most important thing is how it sounds. Whether or not it matches some sort of theoretical formula like a pentatonic scale over something else is irrelevant. Concentrate on making sounds you like. There's no guarantee that every, or any, one else will like what you like. But if you like it, play it and to h*ll with everyone else. Have a stab at being a master, not a servant.

[Mark Gunter]

Good job Ron, but a BS alert ... 1) The dichotomy of "master vs. servant" can't always be applied when someone is asking questions about scales, it could be neither but rather "student" and not a d..n thing wrong with that, 2) It is a mistake to think that everyone will be on the same journey or even can possibly be, so guard against being a servant of your own ideas.

[Manfred Hacker]

The problem with an over dependency on scales and scales theory is that you lose the focus on sound. If you are making music the most important thing is how it sounds. Whether or not it matches some sort of theoretical formula like a pentatonic scale over something else is irrelevant. Concentrate on making sounds you like. There's no guarantee that every, or any, one else will like what you like. But if you like it, play it and to h*ll with everyone else. Have a stab at being a master, not a servant.

Many of us are apprentices. Sometimes apprentices need guidance, a framework ...
The Pentatonic Scale is an excellent starting point for finding all the other notes you need to discover the sounds you would like to make. So what is the point in trying to discourage those who want to learn more about Pentatonics?

[jshane]

Note that Ron said "over dependency"....

With that as the context, I think he is absolutely right.

[Mark Gunter]

Note that Ron said "over dependency"....

With that as the context, I think he is absolutely right.

"Absolute" is a term I personally prefer to be more careful with; I agree with the letter of what Ron wrote as well, but where does it come from? I could write my reasons why the sky appears to be blue in this thread ... but while I agree with Ron's sentiment, the BS alert is that, well, I've already written what I think about it. Onward students

[T.D.Nydn]

Any musical concept,,scale,pentatonic or otherwise,,is only used as creatively as the person using it,,,for real mastery of what a pentatonic can do.. listen to what trumpet and piano players do with them..

[stringalong]

Thanks to ALL OF YOU!!! for your fine discussion! Very helpful, and I will cc/save all of your comments. One thing I want to say is about "using your ear and if it sounds good." Personally, sometimes this approach can be a problem with some players. Regarding my own ear, without any apologies or boasting, let me say I have a very good ear (I've only met a couple of people who have better, although I rule out jazz players -- who knows what they are up to?). I play with a lot of people regularly. Some of their ears are good, while some say, "It sounds fine to me" -- NOT. Some trust my own ear, judgement, and fairly good knowledge of music in general, etc, and respect my desire and efforts to come up with notes, interpretations, runs, chords....etc. that match whatever tune passage is under discussion. Yes, and of course often there are multiple chords that would fit somewhere, so we all discuss and then agree on which one to play. We mostly play old time fiddle tunes -- we have a banjo player, guitar, fiddler, and myself on mandolin. Others I've played with (but none of my present friends who play regularly together!!) are insistent that their sound is just fine, thank you. In the past, when I first started playing with other people (in the 1970s....believe it or not...) I encountered this problem a lot. I sometimes would even write down the notation of the two interpretations of a passage, writing parallel on the staff, with one melodic phrase on top of the other, one in red pencil, the other in regular pencil. It was VISUAL that there were 1/2 steps marching along in an Old Time fiddle tune. This is 100% unacceptable in Old Time tunes, unless, of course, one is doing jazz interpretation, I guess, which we don't do. In such disagreements, I would suggest that we agree on which one to use, but people would stubbornly stick to BOTH AT ONCE. Oh, and guess what -- some say, "The IS folk music/old time music..." whatever, so they see this as an excuse to play badly. Very frustrating to me, as these people were impossible to communicate with, either verbally or musically. They use their own ears, "and if it sounds good" to them, they have no intention to sharpen up and learn better sounds. At the time, they were the only people I knew back then, who I had the opportunity to play with so I "had no choice" -- it was either play with them, or play alone. I'm very, very grateful and happy with the folks I now know. As a matter5 of fact, one of the people I played with in the '70s now lives in the city where I live, and still makes the argument about "this IS old time music, after all." This person also eschews tuning their instrument perfectly, and advises others not to do that, either. (Sorry for the rant, but maybe others of you have encountered some of these issues?)

[stringalong]

David, Lewis, I can't locate a Mel Bay mandolin pentatonic use book. Have you got a link? I'd like to see that book, and/or order it.

Here's another one I found:

The Pentatonic Mandolin by Niles Hokkanen.

https://www.elderly.com/books/fiddle...c-mandolin.htm

[David Lewis]

I guess you want yo be able to forget the rules after you have learned them. So learn your scales and chords. Then integrate them. Then use them.

[David Lewis]

David, Lewis, I can't locate a Mel Bay mandolin pentatonic use book. Have you got a link? I'd like to see that book, and/or order it.

Here's another one I found:

The Pentatonic Mandolin by Niles Hokkanen.

https://www.elderly.com/books/fiddle...c-mandolin.htm

https://www.amazon.com/Mel-Bay-prese.../dp/078667167X

I remembered as I googled this that it was the inestimable ted Eschliman who recommended this. Note, it's for guitar, so the tab is wrong . But it is superb.

I am going to check out the Hokkanen book. Thanks for that.

[Mandoplumb]

Many of us are apprentices. Sometimes apprentices need guidance, a framework ...
The Pentatonic Scale is an excellent starting point for finding all the other notes you need to discover the sounds you would like to make. So what is the point in trying to discourage those who want to learn more about Pentatonics?

What's wrong with the melody as the framework? Then deviate from that making each break a part of the song you are playinginstead of scales that will work with anything and sound like all the other breaks.

[stringalong]

Hello, David, you wrote: "In your initial exploration Stick to diatonics. So Maj, min, min, maj, maj, min, dim (though in this case minor will work with judicious fingering) "

I do know what diatonic is, but what does phrase refer to: So Maj, min, min, maj, maj, min, dim (though in this case minor will work with judicious fingering) " -- chords? 7 (8) note scales? Diatonic scales???? How does diatonic apply to this list of "thingys."

[MichaelW]

What's wrong with the melody as the framework? Then deviate from that making each break a part of the song you are playinginstead of scales that will work with anything and sound like all the other breaks.

I think all the best bluegrass players use the melody as a framework for solos but having at least a basic knowledge of scales makes deviating from the melody much less fraught with danger!

Again, in bluegrass songs/tunes typically stay in one key so if you are in the key of C you can choose to improvise with a C major scale or a C major pentatonic scale. Each will have it's own sound, or flavour, and this is where the creativity comes in. Some notes will create tension against the chords and others will sit more comfortably against them and this again is where your own creativity comes in.

For further exploration try adding a Bb and Eb to a C scale for that bluesy sound.

[stringalong]

I think all the best bluegrass players use the melody as a framework for solos but having at least a basic knowledge of scales makes deviating from the melody much less fraught with danger!

Again, in bluegrass songs/tunes typically stay in one key so if you are in the key of C you can choose to improvise with a C major scale or a C major pentatonic scale. Each will have it's own sound, or flavour, and this is where the creativity comes in. Some notes will create tension against the chords and others will sit more comfortably against them and this again is where your own creativity comes in.

For further exploration try adding a Bb and Eb to a C scale for that bluesy sound.

I completely agree, Michael! Do you think Bluegrass style sticks to I-IV-V mostly, or perhaps throws in a ii or iim? Old Time music often plays quite a few chords other than these. (I know I could listen to a lot of bluegrass and figure this out, but....) So I'll have quite a challenge switching around in the pentatonic scales. However, I also frequently just "manufacture" harmonies based on I don't know what -- shapes on the fingerboard plus ear plus getting ideas from other players and matching some of the notes, and whatall else. I hesitate to interfere with my intuitions so am likely going to limit my left-brain knowledge of scales to some extent. I've already had half of my early lifetime of music playing that shut down my ear and natural abilities. That was due to a piano teacher who didn't know how to teach. I studied piano for many years. Then when I was 28 I went to my first jam. I left my mandolin in the car because I was too shy and inexperienced to bring it out, at first! I had only been reading notation on it, up to that point. A lovely, sweet woman virtually demanded I go get it! At the jam I suddenly heard a fiddler play Redwing, and was able to play it instantly. I didn't read music on the mandolin again till I took a mandolin refresher class about 6 years ago.

[MichaelW]

Yes, mostly I-IV-V with VIm probably being the other most common chord. Of course the VIm chord could be thought of as moving to the relative minor but this doesn't necessarily make a difference to the scales you can use. You would just resolve to a different note. A good example of this is Temperance Reel which is in G but Goes to Em.

[Ted Eschliman]

Way more deep level theory than you probably want, but jazz musicians can use pentatonics in nefarious ways that will boggle the mind of the typical folk/bluegrass musician. Using a D major pentatonic over a C chord to get the #11, 9, 13 scale degree is another voice wth those five simple notes. You end up soloing over what becomes a C Major7 #11.

More examples? Proceed with caution: Pentatonic Scales. A Whole New Level

[David Lewis]

What I meant was the scales you can use starting on each note.

So, in C, a C maj pentatonic over the C. A D min pentatnic to start on D in C. (Or you might call it Dorian) A E min pentatonic to start on the E (Phrygian) etc.

It's pretty straight forward until the B. The notes in B min pentatonic are

B - D - E - F# - A - B. Even then it features a tri tone F#/C.

So, in short, play a C chord and then play each pentatonic over it. See what happens.

[Mark Gunter]

Hello, David, you wrote: "In your initial exploration Stick to diatonics. So Maj, min, min, maj, maj, min, dim (though in this case minor will work with judicious fingering) "

I do know what diatonic is, but what does phrase refer to: So Maj, min, min, maj, maj, min, dim (though in this case minor will work with judicious fingering) " -- chords? 7 (8) note scales? Diatonic scales???? How does diatonic apply to this list of "thingys."

Maj - min - min - Maj - Maj - min -dim - (Maj)

Refers to Diatonic Harmony - Progression of chord (harmony) colorings per scale degree in a Major key. So in the key of C, for example, diatonic harmony would form the chords of:

I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii* - I

CMaj - Dm - Em - FMaj - GMaj - Am - Bdim - CMaj

[fatt-dad]

I still don't know what a gerund is, but I use them every day.

My take on music theory. . .

f-d

[Mark Gunter]

A gerund is an -ing word. My take on gerunds.

[stringalong]

Okay, yes I knew about the chords. Thanks for the clarification. Ideally, someone would play one chord for a long, long time and I'd jam along with it on the mandolin. I guess i can do the (ie each one as I master one improv) repeated chord on my alto mandolin, record it on Easy Voice Recorder, and put it into Windows Media Player to jam with.

[stringalong]

Duh....I was starting the look up the meaning of gerund...then I got your point...