Rhythm triplet question

[Emonortem]

If I'm going to put a triplet strum on the 4 beat going into the one...

Do you guys begin the triplet on a down beat, and hit the next measure one beat on an up?

That's what I've always done. But I'm wondering if it is possible to consciously begin the triplet on an up stroke so you can end on a downstroke on the next 1 beat as you choke out of the triplet?

[Tobin]

I would approach it very specifically to the context. Whenever possible, I always want to end a measure on an upstroke so I start the next measure properly. If I can cheat the triplet with a hammer-on or pull-off instead of using three pick strokes, I'll do that so I don't break my picking rhythm. But if I have to pick all three notes, I would choose the pick direction depending on what's before and after it. Plus the tempo will be a big factor too.

If the note before it is a quarter note and I'm coming off of a downstroke, I'd play the triplet as UDU. If it's a string of eighth-notes before the triplet and I'm coming off an upstroke, I might play the triplet like I would in jig time, DUD. But no matter what I did, I would want to come into the next measure on a downstroke. No sense screwing up the pattern for other measures, in my mind.

[Emonortem]

I'm thinking you're speaking of single note triplets, right?

I'm asking about rhythm strumming...correct me if I'm reading you wrong!

[Tobin]

Yeah, I was speaking of playing single notes. Not sure what purpose a "triplet strum" would serve when playing rhythm. But in the end, pick stroke is pick stroke, regardless of how many strings you're playing. For many reasons, I'd still want to start the next measure on a downstroke.

[catmandu2]

Of course triplet strums are used, as well as many other combinations and techniques. A triplet is very effective in jazz approaches and is often indicated to render the proper syncopation effect. If the feel you're imparting necessities or is best served by up-ustroking, beginning or ending on an upstroke, or any other configuration - by all means do it. Like a drummer - you want to be able to execute any stroke, syncopation, or figure you want. You can use rhythmic variation to impart interest to your music/playing - highly characteristic in jazz, for example.

I recommend the Buddy Wachter material for basic tutorial on rhythmic elements and technical approaches - jazz banjo exploits the range of rhythmic possibilities.

[James Rankine]

Yeah, I was speaking of playing single notes. Not sure what purpose a "triplet strum" would serve when playing rhythm. But in the end, pick stroke is pick stroke, regardless of how many strings you're playing. For many reasons, I'd still want to start the next measure on a downstroke.

Yes same principal applies to single note and strummed triplets. Strummed triplets are a very well recognised technique in Irish guitar and bouzouki accompaniment, though a much tighter strum just across a few strings for the obvious reasons of a lack of time - it is a rhythmic flourish that breaks up the normal strumming.
I would recommend that you develop a technique which is independent of what you play before or after the triplet. Mike Marshall teaches a double up after a triplet to get you back into your normal pick direction but I think most players of Irish music would do the triplet, DUD, then just carry on with your normal pick stroke. This does mean in effect a double down stroke, but you have an 8th note time between this to recover. What ever technique you go for the principle of a consistent approach applies which will allow you to do these without thinking.

[CarlM]

I listened to Tim May spend the better part of an hour discussing this in a session at Kaufman Kamp a few years ago. What I took away from it is there is not an easy answer and that you either have to find a place to double down stroke or double up stroke or hammer on somewhere and that it depends on the song and context. If I recall correctly Tim would usually double down stroke coming into the triplet but my memory is hazy.

[Jim Bevan]

Ya, in this case I would "consciously begin the triplet on an up stroke" -- I'd play two downstrokes on "3 and". It feels more natural if the tune is swinging, but I'm so used to doing it that I do it even if the tune is played straight eighths.

[Mandoplumb]

Not trying to be a smart a## but do y'all really play consistently down up? In the words of Jethro that would bore me to death.

[Tobin]

Not trying to be a smart a## but do y'all really play consistently down up? In the words of Jethro that would bore me to death.

Are you talking about playing rhythm, melody, or what? Playing consistently DUDUDUDU (or at least keeping that motion going) is important when you get into the faster tempos. If you take a haphazard approach to pick direction, you'll find yourself breaking down past a certain speed.

If using a consistent pick direction bores you, I think perhaps you're not playing interesting enough music? That's like saying that walking consistently with your feet left-right-left-right is boring. It's not the motion of your legs (or your pick) that defines the interest level of the journey, is it?

[Mandoplumb]

Listen to John Duffy, Red Rector, Jethro Burns, Bill Monroe etc do you hear a constant ududud on their lead. I hear tremolo, cross picking, down stroking, syncopation, hesitation, everything but a constant ududud. Oh and by the way the music I play does interest me because I attempt to use all different pick strokes, sometimes I have to work at it to get up to speed, but that's what keeps it interesting.

[Jim Bevan]

I made a png file of a score showing how I'd play triplets starting on all four beats, but I can't upload it because "You do not have permission to perform this action. Please refresh the page and login before trying again." Tried lots of times. It's because I'm in Dubai, maybe? Or maybe just where I'm staying (one of those built-by-the-employer "accommodations", with hundreds of little studio apartments but a shared internet that allows only one device per apartment etc). My US online banking is a little strange too -- makes me answer a security question every time I login, instead of just when my IP address changes. Maybe it's the timing (I had to re-login to send this, after writing it) -- maybe I just can't do the "Insert Image" procedure fast enough.
Ya, NMC

[Emonortem]

Can you email that file Jim? I'll pm you my email if you want.

[Jim Bevan]

Sure, glad to. I made it just for this thread, so it'll be nice to be able to use it.

Irish Trad is the style, although my technique is a little different from most mandolinists, who are trying to emulate the fiddles -- I figure that a mandolin is more like a guitar, and so I learned to do what guitarists do, how their triplets sort of fall into the following downbeat. Like, with "3 and", think of the "and" and the following triplet as just four quick notes, played equally. Makes it swing nicely, and seems to blend better in the mix too, in my opinion.

[MichaelW]

I would do DUDD so you have a down strum on beats 4 and 1.

[CarlM]

That's like saying that walking consistently with your feet left-right-left-right is boring.

That is a great analogy. Perhaps the Ministry of Silly Walks could help us on the left right thing.

I find crashing and burning because I got my pick direction tangled a lot more boring than down up, down up. Triplets do mess with the down ups though.