Flea Market Find

[jerryk]

Hello,
Yesterday at the ham radio flea market I found:




... for the bargain price of twenty bucks.

Yesterday, it wasn't quite so pretty. Most of the strings were broken, and it had obviously been stored for a long time in a dirty place. But - aside from the strings, it was all there, nothing seemed to be broken, and the price was right.

Dirt was ground into it to the point that ordinary non-destructive cleaning was impossible. So I sanded it clean with 1000-grit sandpaper and steel wool, and hit it with a few coats of Watco lacquer - after, of course, removing the tuning machines, the bridge, and the tailpiece.

The lacquer coat isn't perfect, but good enough so one can hold it without being disgusted . This morning, I put it back together and restrung it with a set of GHS Ultralights that I had laying around. I did mike the existing( broken ) strings, and they
were a bit thicker than the Ultralights, but still thinner than ordinary gibson-type mandolin strings.

It plays pretty good. Quite loud. Although that might be an illusion - with the round soundhole in the player's face. The fingerboard and string spacing are wider than my
other mandolins. In fact, they're so wide that I was able to do a little finger-picking.

I do have one problem though. One of the tuners is INOP. The button just twirls on the shaft. I can still tune it by grabbing the shaft with a pair of pliers, but that's not a tenable long term solution .

These tuners are a little strange. Their shafts are very small in diameter, both the ones that go to the buttons, and the ones that turn the strings. Smaller than I'm used to seeing. They also have a slightly wide spacing. The total length of a row of four posts is maybe 1/8" longer than the Grovers on my modern mando.

I could.... fabricate a new knob out of steel and weld it to the post.
or ........ plug the existing holes, drill new holes with the exact proper spacing and
install modern tuners.
or ........ Go on a major search for the exact right tuners.
or ........ Relegate the thing to wall-decoration duty.
( That last would be a shame. It plays nice ).

So - my question - to people who know more than I do about vintage mandolins - Is this any sort of valuable collector's item? Such that I shouldn't mess with it?
Thanks in advance,

- Jerry Kaidor

[EdHanrahan]

Is this any sort of valuable collector's item? Such that I shouldn't mess with it?

The bad news is that you've already messed with it, applying steel wool and varnish. That would normally be a no-no, or two of them. Except that ...

The good news is that, regardless of age, the seven or nine "barrel staves" of the bowl mark it as a student-grade instrument, so you probably haven't hurt its value very much. It's probably not made of the finest woods or with exquisite craftsmanship, although it could sound good and play nicely. Lots of us own such instruments, if only for the curiosity/fascination factor. So enjoy!

How old it actually might be, I haven't a clue. The wood does seem bright and new, but that could be the steel wool talking.

FWIW, the better bowlbacks generally have from 15 into the 30's of sections comprising the bowl, usually in an uneven number. Be sure to use light-gauge strings on it.

Edit: Yikes! I missed the $20 comment on first reading. WELL DONE!!

[pops1]

You may be able to take the tuners off and heat the offending shaft of the loose button and it will melt it back to firm. Carefully, I would pull it off first, heat the shaft, then set it back on.

[jerryk]

The good news is that, regardless of age, the seven or nine "barrel staves" of the bowl mark it as a student-grade instrument,
Edit: Yikes! I missed the $20 comment on first reading. WELL DONE!!

*** Very cool. I am not really a collector. Although I do seem to be accumulating instruments.

Poking around on the Internet, it would be nice to

• Fabricate a new nut. The existing nut is very primitive, looks like plastic, and has triangular slots.
• Refret it. It has low, flat-top brass frets.
• Install a set of Grover tuning machines. The existing tuners are simply not very good. I took them off and dunked them in an ultrasonic cleaner, so at least they're clean. Some of them turn freely, some reluctantly, and the problem with those is that the hole in the plate is too tight. A problem in the original manufacture, not age or corrosion.

[JeffD]

Wow that is great.

Many years ago I acquired a bowlback at a flea market for something like $25.00 It has spend many years being a planter for silk and dried flowers. Because it hadn't had strings on it for 40 or 50 years, it never really had much of a sound by the time I got it. And after a couple of years the neck separated.

It looks as if you have a bowl in better shape, and it hasn't lost its sound. Play the potatoes out of it. Sure is pretty.

[CES]

Nice find, and sounds like it will be a nice learning project as well! It will certainly be rewarding to get it in playable shape!!

[jerryk]

You may be able to take the tuners off and heat the offending shaft of the loose button and it will melt it back to firm. Carefully, I would pull it off first, heat the shaft, then set it back on.

It kind of looks like somebody already did that. The button has a burned look. Like somebody got after it with a cigarette lighter. I could do a better job - I have a hot air blower machine, used for soldering integrated circuits. It is adjustable for temperature, and has very small tips - I think there's one that's 1/8" diameter. So I set it to a temp to
make the plastic pliable, heat the button itself, and squish it a little. Then heat the shaft to re-stick the plastic to it. ?

[EdHanrahan]

... it would be nice to

• new nut ...
• Refret ...
• tuning machines ...

It sounds like you're handy with the standard tools, so the real good news is the reference info available from Café members, some of them being top professionals:

- Frank Ford's "Frets.com" covers more aspects of instrument maintenance than most of us could imagine. It's easy to hone in on specifics, but reading it front to back shouldn't take more than a month if you don't sleep! (Most of those parts don't know or care if they're on a guitar, mandolin, or ukulele - the function is the same).
- Paul Hostetter's comments, especially on tuner maintenance / resurrection have saved many of us from short-sighted mistakes. http://www.lutherie.net/tuner.maintenance.html
(Tri-Flow has become my all-purpose friend, especially on aluminum or vinyl window sashes).
- Rob Meldrum's free e-book on mandolin set-up is most educational. At minimum, it will help you evaluate the current status of your instrument (send a PM to Café member "Robster").

Advice on tuners is to be aware of the relative post spacing (not all are identical) as well as the backplate's screw-hole spacing (even less identical). Yes, holes can be filled & re-drilled, but that's some additional work. And inaccurate posthole-spacing (sometimes from from original manufacture) can cause even good tuners (or especially good tuners) to act not-so-wonderful. Fortunately, Stewart-MacDonald (stewmac.com) publishes pretty detailed blueprints on the tuners that they sell. For example: http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_...FciNswodGYQDJA

Hope this helps. Good luck!

[jerryk]

It sounds like you're handy with the standard tools, so the real good news is the reference info available from Café members, some of them being top professionals:

*** Thanks for the comprehensive list!
As it happens, I already have the Meldrum tome. The info came in very handy when I was repairing my Dad's old mando - and also for setting up the one I built from one of
those Chinese kits they have at International Violin. That was a lengthy project - graduating the top and back took about a month.

Stewmac alas does not have a drop-in replacement for these tuners. Their "golden age" tuners have a spacing of .931", which is wider than the modern standard of .906". However, these particular tuners have an even larger spacing of 0.9522".

BTW, here's another find from this weekend's flea market.
The seller wanted $35. I didn't even dicker. My hand was reaching for my wallet before he finished his sentence.

[multidon]

Interesting! I used to be involved with ham radio years ago and was very enthusiastic about attending ham fests. The ones I went to all had rules that all items for sale had to be radio or at least electronics related so never saw anything like that. That thickness caliper is a great find!

Honestly, that instrument is not high grade as stated above. My guess, student grade German. Never saw a bowl back with a perfectly flat top before. Most have a cant. But you did nothing to its value by the refinishing. If it were mine, I would plug the existing holes and redrill for tuners with modern spacing. The new tuners needn't be expensive. Some Grover 309s would do nicely. Fabricatingna new knob sounds like way too much work. Searching for exact replacements could be a huge waste of time and futile. Relegating it to hanging on a wall would be a shame, since you have already put work into it.

Not meaning to step on anyone's toes, but the whole "wall hanger" thing? I just never got it. One mans meat is another mans poison, I guess, but to me there is just something sad about hanging useless musical instruments on a wall as objects of "art". They are made to be played, after all. With a few exceptions, like the Gibson pancakes they used to sell as "souvenirs" in Nashville at the Bluegrass Showcase before the flood, and like Pakistani harps. Not really meant to be seriously played. But these are exceptions, not the rule. In this case, I would make it playable, and play it!

[Verne Andru]

It kind of looks like somebody already did that. The button has a burned look. Like somebody got after it with a cigarette lighter. I could do a better job - I have a hot air blower machine, used for soldering integrated circuits. It is adjustable for temperature, and has very small tips - I think there's one that's 1/8" diameter. So I set it to a temp to
make the plastic pliable, heat the button itself, and squish it a little. Then heat the shaft to re-stick the plastic to it. ?

FWIW I've watched my luthier fix a few machine buttons like this. He has some blank buttons (no or small holes) that he uses. Older plastics tend to break down over time, so best to look to places like StewMac for replacements.

He removes the machines from the instrument. Holding it with pliers, he uses a small torch to heat the button shaft. Once it gets hot enough he presses the new button blank onto the hot shaft, which melts its way into the button. After a few seconds the button plastic has cooled after being custom formed to the shaft and the problem is solved. Quite simple once you've seen it done once.

Nice score - enjoy!