Picks - Science Question

[Bertram Henze]

best pick for just a measly two bits ...

I have tried blunt metal picks like those - no playing technique in the world can get them to produce the crisp&raspy sound I want. Clayton Ultem 0.73 Triangles do the trick for me all these years. But YMMV like everybody else's.

[rfd]

i would never use metal on metal. resin, wood, bone - all are fine one way or t'other. so are fingernails and finger flesh.

[MediumMando5722]

I have some metal Dunlop picks. They're fun on electric guitar with a lot of distortion for getting squeal effects, but awful for anything else.

[fscotte]

People often misunderstand how a pick works. It isn't "picking" the string, it's "hitting" the string. Very similar to the advice of dropping a pick on a hard surface to hear its timbre. The same thing is happening when hitting the strings.

Another analogy, a pick acts similar to the hammer on a piano. You are hitting the strings. If the piano hammer had a hard steel surface hitting the strings, then you'd get a loud brash timbre. Most pianos need some form of softening agent like felt to deaden those awful overtones.

Mando picks are "soft" by nature, even the BC are soft. One reason why people actually like plastic, or celluloid, because of a mandos high frequency. Metal picks, even the great TS picks are not good for mandos.

[Explorer]

People often misunderstand how a pick works. It isn't "picking" the string, it's "hitting" the string. Very similar to the advice of dropping a pick on a hard surface to hear its timbre. The same thing is happening when hitting the strings.

Another analogy, a pick acts similar to the hammer on a piano. You are hitting the strings. If the piano hammer had a hard steel surface hitting the strings, then you'd get a loud brash timbre. Most pianos need some form of softening agent like felt to deaden those awful overtones.

Mando picks are "soft" by nature, even the BC are soft. One reason why people actually like plastic, or celluloid, because of a mandos high frequency. Metal picks, even the great TS picks are not good for mandos.

The plucking motion itself is *not* a hit or a strike, in spite of the possible click of the pick hitting the string prior to the deflect-release of the pluck.

The more flexible a pick is, the more it acts as an instantaneous hammer strike, as noted in my previous post on the known physics of pick use on strings. The less flexible a pick, the fewer and weaker the higher overtones become. If your claim that picking is like a hammer strike, then metal picks like coins would require damping material like the piano hammers to which you claim they are equivalent. However, even instrument players who embrace using coins do so because of the strong fundamental and suppression of high-frequency overtones.

Again, the physics of pick usage on strings is known, and your understanding is incorrect in a few ways.

[Mandoplumb]

Fscotte I disagree. Many years ago when you could buy TS picks that is all I would use on mandolin. Spent years trying to duplicate the sound till I finally gave up. By the way I've paid $20 for one in the 70's. That makes them more expensive than BC adjusted for inflation, so the price is NOT why I don't use BC.

[billkilpatrick]

So … if flexibility of the pick hitting a string is the essential sound producing element, a thick pick, loosely held between thumb and forefinger at the top of the pick would - in theory - produce a tone similar to a thin pick, squeezed tightly between thumb and forefinger at the bottom of the pick, closest to the string - right?

[MediumMando5722]

So … if flexibility of the pick hitting a string is the essential sound producing element, a thick pick, loosely held between thumb and forefinger at the top of the pick would - in theory - produce a tone similar to a thin pick, squeezed tightly between thumb and forefinger at the bottom of the pick, closest to the string - right?

Thereotically, maybe, but to my ears, no.

[sblock]

So … if flexibility of the pick hitting a string is the essential sound producing element, a thick pick, loosely held between thumb and forefinger at the top of the pick would - in theory - produce a tone similar to a thin pick, squeezed tightly between thumb and forefinger at the bottom of the pick, closest to the string - right?

Bill,

No, I'm afraid it is not the case -- even in theory! -- that a thick pick held loosely would be expected to produce the same sound as a thinner pick held tightly.

It is true that the sound created by a pick on a plucked string depends on the stiffness, mass, and damping of the pick. See my earlier post about all the factors that contribute, because these are just some of them: the sound of the pick on the strings also depends on the geometry of the pick's edge (corner size/shape; bevel) and on the friction of the pick material against the strings and on the distance from the grip to the corner, etc., etc. But let's leave these factors aside for the moment.

A thick pick supplies more mass than a thin pick of the same material. Also, holding a thick pick loosely in the hand does not provide the same stiffness as a thin pick held more tightly, and it most definitely will not have the same degree of damping. A thick pick held loosely has quite a lot of damping, in fact, whereas a thin pick held tightly has much less damping. There is NO WAY I would expect these things to sound similar, even in theory. And from a purely experimental perspective, we both know that they absolutely don't!

The "flexibility" (that is, the intrinsic stiffness) of a pick is but one factor. Furthermore, you do cannot compensate for pick flexibility by simply adjusting your grip! It just doesn't work that way.

[HoGo]

When I think of it, the pick click can be likely mostly product of pick approaching strings (especially when thay are still moving) The harder glassier surface of the pick the more of the click is audible. And the soud you produce is mostly determined by how the string leaves the pick edge - if you put your pick slowly to quiet string and slowly push the pick close to the "release" position you will eliminate most of the click and play the note the sound will be just like when you pick it in normal situation minus the click/noise of the pick material (there may be some sound caused by friction and surface roughness of the pick but not much).
So he tone is determined largely by release of the string and the shape and stiffness of the pick has most influence on this. thinned flexible picks will release the string fast and the acceleration of the string is higher than roundish thick pick where string slides off the edge of the pick with lower acceleration due to friction at the start, also softer material with higher friction produce less bright sound than harder more slippery material. Pointier picks are brighter than round even from the same material. So are thinner more flexible picks brighter than thicker of the same material (unless the pick is made of purely elastic material like rubber or felt - these are completely another category)

[fscotte]

Ok maybe I don't grasp the entire motion of the pick across the strings. I was thinking more of the initial slap, when the pick first hits the strings, as in a hammer on a piano string. From that point, the string stretches, there is no sound.

So, follow the sound:

-pick hits string
-pick slides across string
-pick slides off string

Are those the 3 elements of sound or is there more.

[Tom Wright]

The sound begins (other than audible click) when the string is released, just as when using fingers. The nature of the release has some variable aspects, which are mostly from the grip, angle in one plane, angle in the other plane, the depth of the pick stroke, but also the pick material and the shape of the edge have an effect.

On the second one, the shape of the edge, that is, beveled, rounded---pointy or a round tip---is a major factor. In comparing, for example, identically shaped and equally thin standard picks from Fender (celluloid) and Dunlop (Ultex), if I sand down the sharp beveled edge of the Ultex it loses the bright "ping" and sounds like the duller Fender pick. So although they are different materials, I think the tone is very much in the micro behavior of that edge. Also, as the pick wears and it gets less pointy, the tone softens.

Grip has these variations:1) Flat to the string or angled in the vertical plane, 2) pushing the string down ("rest-stroke"), level (across the top), or pulling upward (3 angles in the horizontal plane), and 3) how much pick is exposed, that is how high up on the pick do you hold.

1) This shifts tone from clean/clear when flat to darker when angled.
2) Pushing down lets the string speak by leaping upward on release, while pulling up does the opposite. The first lets the string jump without hitting anything, while the second has it slap the fingerboard on release. The horizontal stroke is the most gentle, but thinner in tone than the first.
3) If you cover most of the material of the pick with a deep grip, its tone will be mostly from your stroke, while if you let most of it be exposed, its material will have some effect, with the brighter-toned materials like Blue Chip and Ultex being noticeably different from the softer tone of celluloid.

When the pick is really thick, like 2mm or more, the tone would be mainly due to pick shape and the stroke style. There are significant differences in the shape of the pick edge and the main profile in the varieties of Wegen, Primetone, Blue Chip, etc. I think it is mostly about the shape, but the softer materials will release the string more gently by damping a tiny bit of motion as the string breaks free, while the harder ones will let it slip off quickly.

How much you cover the pick has some effect, but the differences in picks are more about their behavior than the depth of grip.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From HoGo - "...thinned flexible picks will release the string fast and the acceleration of the string is higher than roundish thick pick where string slides off the edge of the pick with lower acceleration due..". Adrian - If i use the .05mm 'thin' pick that i got as a freebie -exactly the opposite happens !. The pick bends a 'LOT',drags over the strings & releases them one at a time. The effect is like playing the strings twice with one picking action - i get a double note = weird !.

My first Primetones were 1.3 mm thick & they sounded more 'powerful' than my 1.4 mm Wegen Bluegrass picks. I decided to go up one thickness to the 1.5 mm Primetones, & they were even more 'powerful'. My Lebeda takes a lot of 'driving',so i recently bought some of the new 2.0 mm thick Primetone picks, & on that mandolin,they produce a very 'punchy' sound. However,on my Weber & Ellis,they produce a slightly 'hard' tone.

I do ocassionally try out some old picks just to hear what happens. Going 'thinner' on any of my 3 mandolins, produces less volume,clarity & definition + a 'thinner' tone.

This discussion only points to the fact that we really do need to try out as many picks as we can in order to find the ones that sound the best for us - on our mandolins. How our favourite picks sound on other folk's mandolins,is purely of accademic interest & vice versa !,
Ivan

[Explorer]

Ok maybe I don't grasp the entire motion of the pick across the strings. I was thinking more of the initial slap, when the pick first hits the strings, as in a hammer on a piano string. From that point, the string stretches, there is no sound.

So, follow the sound:

-pick hits string
-pick slides across string
-pick slides off string

Are those the 3 elements of sound or is there more.

Well, there is definitely the opportunity for noise/sound in those three phases.

In the first, with the pick first making contact with the string, you can get both click from the pick, and the transmission of that click to the soundboard. A few builders I have known have refered to that sound as "knock," and you can excite much the same response by muting the strings with the fingers of one hand lightly on the fretboard, and flicking a fingernail on the other hand down to smack on a string like you'd flck at someone's ear. When speaking about that first contact between pick and string of course, a softer material (like felt or rubber) will have less click, and a harder material (like the hard plastics and metals) will have more. Polypropelene will be in the middle.

The sawing of a pick across the string isn't usually all that noticeable, especially since it normally happens in the same microseconds as the pick contacting the string. (I can't remember how many milliseconds apart two sound have to be to be perceived as separate sound, but I'n pretty sure these two instances are perceive as one.)

And then there's the release, with a spectrum between flexible-to-stiff pick material on how strong/weak the overtones are. More flexible, the more overtones and brightness. More stiff, the less overtones and brightness.

What's interesting is the picks which are flexible (more overtones) *and* with a softer surface upon first contact.I have some pick that I think were originally meant for ukulele or autoharo, with a flexible core covered in a thin layer of felt on the outside. There's no initial click, and some good brightness (upper frequency content) on the pluck.

----

There are ways in which a pick can affect the sound in other ways during those phases. If the pick makes first contact with a string while parallel to the string, you'll get more click, more like a slap in the way a swimmer can belly flop into a pool. *ouch!*

If a pick has rough edges, is dragged with more surface area against the string, or a combination of both, this can add the scrape to the sound. Even a soft felt pick can drag on a string and add that noise. I shape a few of my felt picks at the tip to change the angles when gripped relative to the strings, to minimize that friction. Others file their picks, whether a tortoid or other plastic, or metal, or any other material.

I think the reason the Wedgie rubber pick was chosen even by the owners of Blue Chip, Red Bear and Wegen picks in our informal blind listenng test is that it gave a deep fundamental without any higher harmonics, *and* without any initial click or dragging noise. I was expecting some close preferences between the high end picks and the tortoid picks (Claytone, Primetone, etc.), but not a blowout from a cheap rubber pick.

And that variance between expectations and outcome is why I'm always a fan of reality checks like blind tests.

[HoGo]

From HoGo - "...thinned flexible picks will release the string fast and the acceleration of the string is higher than roundish thick pick where string slides off the edge of the pick with lower acceleration due..". Adrian - If i use the .05mm 'thin' pick that i got as a freebie -exactly the opposite happens !. The pick bends a 'LOT',drags over the strings & releases them one at a time. The effect is like playing the strings twice with one picking action - i get a double note = weird !.
Ivan

Well, Ivan, those extremes are outliers, they are so flexible and lack stiffness that they are not even capable of displacing string to the same distance as thicker picks... Unless you dip them extremely into strings up to your thumb and that brings other set of weird results....
re. the wegen and primetone, you can compare them only if they have same shape and similar thickness/stiffness and of course they will give different results on different mandolins. Mandolin that is inherently bright will sound better with pick that doesn't add to that brightness while instrument that is dark or woody may benefit from brighter sounding pick...
Also heavier strings will accept heavier attack of heavier pick while you have to be gentler on lighter strings either with right hand technique or lighter pick.

[billkilpatrick]

Got it - Thanks, guys ...

[Explorer]

Mandolin that is inherently bright will sound better with pick that doesn't add to that brightness while instrument that is dark or woody may benefit from brighter sounding pick....

I took me a while to realize that "better" always refers to the genre a person prefers.

In the case of mandolins, a mandolin which lacks high end and sustain is often considered preferable for bluegrass, while a less percussive, sweet-sounding instrument with more sustain is preferred for other genres.

It's totally okay to have preferences, of course, and recognizing what those preferences are *and* knowing how construction, picks and technique affect timbre allows one to get there more efficiently.

[Explorer]

Double post!

[JeffD]

This is a great article.

I took me a while to realize that "better" always refers to the genre a person prefers.

There is something to that. I have one group of picks I go to for a bluegrassy sound, generally 1.4 mm and triangular. And another I go to for classical, generally 0.75 mm and pointy.

Both types of picks are excellent for what they do, and not suitable for the other job.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I used the 'thin' pick yesterday,just to refresh my memory of what it sounds like. It's .046mm thin,bends very,very easily,& never fails to produce a double note as it hits each of the strings in turn. It's really weird to use !,
Ivan