Alpaca "Linear Tuners" for mandolin?

[MatthewVanitas]

I'm about to take the 8 cheap tuners off my Eastman Airline electric mandola and go to four-string, and I was looking for durable and compact tuners since I carry my mandola around traveling, on the subway, etc and it gets dinged up sometimes.

Then I ran across these, which I'm finding fascinating. They're US$25/per, made of stainless steel and naval bronze, with a 1:40 gear ratio: https://www.etsy.com/listing/4642752...achine#reviews





Before anyone asks, yes I did contact the builder and ask them to provide specifics as to weight, as I could imagine these being heavy. Though in my situation with only 4 strings I'm not too worried.

What do folks think, could be cool on a mandolin?

[fscotte]

Pretty rough looking for my taste.

[Timbofood]

It just begs the question... "Why?"

[Tobin]

It would look odd on a traditional mandolin, but on an electric it might be OK. If you like the look, it's your call.

From a functional standpoint, I would worry about 2 things:

1. Will it still fit the same in the case? Assuming the tuner buttons were previously sticking out from the sides of the peg head, and now they're protruding from the rear (more like banjo tuners), it may cause an issue with how the peg head clearance works in the case. Will the tuners be touching the bottom of the case?

2. I'm not sure I like how the string bends over the rim where it goes into the tuner casing. I could see that being a wear spot over time. Unlike a round post, where tightening the string just wraps it around the post, this one will require the string to drag over the metal rim. I would think it would start to cut a groove as time goes on. And more importantly, just looking at the photo, it looks like the windings on your G and D strings may cause rough tuning issues. As in, the pitch will "jump" as the windings move along the rim. Maybe if it has a large enough radius and is smooth enough, it won't be an issue. But the photo looks like there's a milled bump in there that seems like it would catch the winding. And I definitely don't like the angle that the string has to bend, especially the way it separates the windings in the photo.

[Jacob]

Don't forget the protective booties.

[HawRiver]

A pair of diagonal cutters would cost a lot less and would accomplish the same function more efficiently.

[multidon]

They remind me somewhat of the Steinberger gearless tuners. They don't appear to have a gear mechanism at all but instead use a direct pull on the string to achieve pitch. It is puzzling to to talk about a 40:1 gear ratio when ther are no gears. This is the same ratio as the Steinbergers, by the way.

I would probably find them too fussy to wok with. It looks like there is a locking brass collar with an Allen net. What if you need to change a string in a hurry? You would have to makes sure you always have the proper Allen wrench close at hand. Beyond that, I'm not a fan of the industrial look.

[pops1]

I have a set of the Steingerger tuners from long ago that I always wanted to put on a banjo, but never did. I did put them on a guitar that my brother has, and they work quite well. The Steingerger tuners have a larger bevel for the string to bend easier.

[billhay4]

I would be concerned like Tobin about the string bend.
Bill

[dschonbrun]

They are designed for straight pull at the tailpiece, and are not as easy to adjust as a traditional peg. Alpaca's are not really designed for 90 degree implementation on a traditional headstock. Tuner pegs are rounded to reduce pressure points on the string at high tension and maintain alignment with the direction of pull. Also, because the G and D strings are wound, I'd be very concerned about binding at the edge when you increase the tension... and that you'd get pops and sticks.

[MatthewVanitas]

Why? This is for my beater travel electric mandola, and one of the most vulnerable points on the instrument is the tuning pegs sticking out. So I'm going to have the local shop trim the head down square, put metal corners with rubber pads inside to strengthen the head from getting knocked around.

Looks? Here's my Eastman Airline as it currently looks (I've taken off the pickguard though):


Attachment 156787



Tuners like these would minimize the travel instrument's breakability, and look cool.

Totally here you on the concerns though; do y'all mind if I ping the maker and ask them to comment (either directly or by emailing me) with any rebuttal to these concerns?

[fscotte]

People do have different ideas of what cool is. Personally, cool factor isn't one of those things I see in say a typical Loar style mando. Elegant, aesthetically pleasing, functional, are words I use to describe traditional mandolin style builds.

I think the tuners in your Eastman look good.

[EdHanrahan]

... one of the most vulnerable points on the instrument is the tuning pegs sticking out.

But they'll STILL stick out, just in a different direction. The plastic buttons of the current tuners are probably more tolerant of life's abuse than the metal knobs of the new one, that will more efficiently transmit shock to the (newly trimmed and probably weaker) headstock itself.

... have the local shop trim the head down square, put metal corners with rubber pads ...

... so that, when the experiment proves to be not-as-expected, the change will NOT be reversible?

But mostly I agree w/ those who see the strings as bending WAY too sharply over the edge of the tuner's hole. That bend is similar to the bridge bend on a flattop guitar, and those strings don't really move over the saddle at all. I predict maybe 20 to 40 re-tunings before the strings break at the tuner.

[MatthewVanitas]

The maker sent me a detailed reply to all your concerns. I've asked him if he wants to join the conversation directly, or just have me share his comments. He's also going to weigh the tuners so he can add that detail to the listing.

[keithb]

Interesting idea. I'm a fan of locking tuners on electric guitars, which give a lot of the benefits that these are advertising.

[Explorer]

The maker sent me a detailed reply to all your concerns. I've asked him if he wants to join the conversation directly, or just have me share his comments. He's also going to weigh the tuners so he can add that detail to the listing.

Why not just share?

Really though, nothing succeeds like success. Why not put the tuners through their paces, and then let us know how they work out better than normal tuners?

I think the following is probably the most interesting and revealing part of the story:

I'm about to take the 8 cheap tuners off my Eastman Airline electric mandola and go to four-string, and I was looking for durable and compact tuners since I carry my mandola around traveling, on the subway, etc and it gets dinged up sometimes.

I'm going to note that I still have my Flatiron mandola, bought new in the '80s, and it is unscarred. I've carried it, and several of my mandolins, on planes and public transit, and not just in cases but also in padded gig bags.

With that in mind, my suspicion is that you might be treating your instrument(s) slightly more roughly than others do.

Given the dearth of topics on the Café regarding how mandolin tuners break in transit, my suspicion is that your concerns regarding needing durable tuners, and even a more durable headstock, don't reflect the realities of tuner durability.

Out of curiosity, have your current tuners failed?

Or, is this you looking for an excuse to put on new tuners which you think look cool?

There's no shame in doing so purely for looks, but when attempting to claim normal tuners suffer failures and aren't durable under the conditions to which your instrument is normally subjected, it seems even your own experiences don't support that claim.

This is for my beater travel electric mandola, and one of the most vulnerable points on the instrument is the tuning pegs sticking out. So I'm going to have the local shop trim the head down square, put metal corners with rubber pads inside to strengthen the head from getting knocked around.

Tuners like these would minimize the travel instrument's breakability, and look cool.

Again, I'm greatly curious not just as to how the current tuners and headstock have proven breakable, but also under what circumstances they were damaged. Padded gigbag? Plastic trashbag? Uncased and smacking it against something carelessly while not paying attention?

[MatthewVanitas]

I just wanted to give the Alpaca fellow a chance to speak for himself; but since none of the info appears sensitive, I'll just post it if I don't hear back soon.

Re rough handling: I have plenty of instruments I've owned for years (including a $4000 concertina) that I take very good care of, but I'm a fan of the Michael Jordan school of "if you want to play basketball, carry a ball everywhere you go." So I tend to keep around a "sacrificial" instrument that I won't cry over denting. For a while I had a $100 sopranino ukulele I took everywhere, and deliberately didn't use a case for so it'll always be handy. It had a dent from getting bumped into a bollard at the National Archives in DC, and a chip missing in the headstock from where it fell out of my car onto a gravel parking lot at a honky-tonk in Lafayette, LA. Funnily enough though, it never broke badly, and I eventually gave it as a beater to a very small-handed girlfriend who ended up getting it repaired and getting really serious about playing uke!

In just the few weeks I've had this one, again I never put it in a case, I just sling it across my back "bard style" and wander around and play it whenever I like . The "point" of the headstock is chipped from when a strap button pulled out (cheap wood) and dropped it off my back on a park sidewalk near Frontenac, the finish has some scratches since a stewardess on the plane from Minneapolis demanded I store it in the overhead bin, and I've repeatedly banged the head into the sides of subway elevators and turnstiles until I developed the reflex of lifting it clear. Gotten some beer on it in a bar (where it also slid down from being propped up on the brass rail. It's not explicitly intentional *damage*, but intentional neglect in the interest of having it constantly on my person or in my hands. It's a $300 instrument and I want to ride it hard and put it away wet.

Back to the tuners: yeah, looking cool is a major aspect of this, I think they look awesome and would probably blow the $99 for a set even if the stock tuners were fine. Granted they protrude, but in a different direction, and it's the "dog-ear" side tuners that are most likely to get banged-up carry it around Montreal. I'm also pondering a clever idea to install some kind of "bollards" around them which don't block me from tuning them but absorb the impact of a hit to the head, *plus* the rubber booties that keep the dust out. I've already added strap-locks for the big leather strap and super-glued the strap buttons (I can drill them out if I want them gone). And I'm shopping hardware supplies on Amazon to find like table corner reinforcers, metal with rubber, to put on the head to absorb impact.

My main two musical interests for this instrument in Montreal are either doing a Country Swing set in some hipster dive, or sitting in to provide accompaniment for a punk band, both the kinds of places I want this instrument to be able to absorb damage if needed. I might actually look into waterproofing the pickup and knobs slightly if that's feasible.

Does that explain it somewhat better?

[michaelcj]

Were I you... I'd consider investing in one of those "Different Drums". [You march kinda funny]

[Explorer]

Re rough handling: I'm a fan of the Michael Jordan school of "if you want to play basketball, carry a ball everywhere you go." So I tend to keep around a "sacrificial" instrument that I won't cry over denting.

Me too. I have a converted Strumstick that lets me practice mandolin, mandola and tenor guitar pieces, and to work on new ideas on the fly. It's easy to carry around, loud enough to be heard even with singing, and it easily fits under an airplane seat.

However, it manages to stay in great shape. I suspect it's because I generally treat my tools, including the instruments and even my mechanical self-winding watch, with normal care and caution.

For a while I had a $100 sopranino ukulele I took everywhere, and deliberately didn't use a case for so it'll always be handy. It had a dent from getting bumped into a bollard at the National Archives in DC, and a chip missing in the headstock from where it fell out of my car onto a gravel parking lot at a honky-tonk in Lafayette, LA.

In just the few weeks I've had this one, again I never put it in a case, I just sling it across my back "bard style" and wander around and play it whenever I like . The "point" of the headstock is chipped from when a strap button pulled out (cheap wood) and dropped it off my back on a park sidewalk near Frontenac, the finish has some scratches since a stewardess on the plane from Minneapolis demanded I store it in the overhead bin, and I've repeatedly banged the head into the sides of subway elevators and turnstiles until I developed the reflex of lifting it clear. Gotten some beer on it in a bar (where it also slid down from being propped up on the brass rail. It's not explicitly intentional *damage*, but intentional neglect in the interest of having it constantly on my person or in my hands. It's a $300 instrument and I want to ride it hard and put it away wet.

Yeah, I'll chalk this up to "intentional."

It's funny... I've busked in many countries with an instrument using minimal protection, and managed to keep such an instrument in good shape. I suspect it's a difference in philosophy, and possibly in whether minor care is against the image one wants to project.

My main two musical interests for this instrument in Montreal are either doing a Country Swing set in some hipster dive, or sitting in to provide accompaniment for a punk band.... Does that explain it somewhat better?

Well, I was active in the harDCore scene, but we were careful so as not to accidentally injure someone. Deliberately being in the mosh pit is one thing, but instruments can hurt. However, yes, this clarifies the image thing, so thank you.

[Tobin]

Given all that you've explained, MatthewVanitas, I say go for it. Might as well. If this is indeed a "beater" and you're willing to experiment on it, as well as permanently alter the headstock, there's really only one way to find out whether these tuners will do what you want. Just go into it with eyes wide open. If they turn into a tuning nightmare, will you have a back-up plan for how to convert the altered headstock back to a configuration that will work with other tuners (like maybe banjo planetary tuners)?

[MatthewVanitas]

Well, I was active in the harDCore scene, but we were careful so as not to accidentally injure someone. Deliberately being in the mosh pit is one thing, but instruments can hurt. However, yes, this clarifies the image thing, so thank you.

That must've been awesome! Before my time, I got into the scene in Seattle in the late 1990s (when grunge had faded and punk had a brief revival). I do emphasize I follow scene protocols, so I'll do circle-pits (not with an instrument) and be sure that it's just good fun and nobody getting hurt, stop and lift up anyone who falls, etc. And in my younger days I was one of the ones who'd help bum-rush out the side door any kid that we caught being actually violent or punchy in the pit.

So I have zero intent of using the mandola as a weapon, just I want crash-bars on it so when someone bumps into me, or moves the amp it's leaning against, it's no worries.

However, it manages to stay in great shape. I suspect it's because I generally treat my tools, including the instruments and even my mechanical self-winding watch, with normal care and caution.

I'm selective about it; my tools are all neatly filed in the toolbox, my vinyl records are all carefully stored and always in a sleeve, and my nice concertina is in tip-top shape after years (whereas my cheap one is full of Afghanistan dust). And even for carry-around instruments, for example I had a Tajik dutar (like a small baglama saz) and even though I carried it all over Newfoundland I was careful with it because I knew it was more fragile and had a lovely dark apricot body. But my "sacrificials" I just shrug off; I don't deliberately bang them on things, I just don't sweat it when I do.

Were I you... I'd consider investing in one of those "Different Drums". [You march kinda funny]

I do have several "different drums", mainly a South Indian kanjira (amazing bass out of a tiny drum) and a Nigerian udu drum. Both of them are modern synthetic ones since I love not worrying about fragility and like the combo of old and new looks (notice a pattern?).

Given all that you've explained, MatthewVanitas, I say go for it. Might as well. If this is indeed a "beater" and you're willing to experiment on it, as well as permanently alter the headstock, there's really only one way to find out whether these tuners will do what you want. Just go into it with eyes wide open. If they turn into a tuning nightmare, will you have a back-up plan for how to convert the altered headstock back to a configuration that will work with other tuners (like maybe banjo planetary tuners)?

Great question, though cutting the headstock smaller is permanent, the holes for the Alpacas are standard-size holes, so I could drop in banjo planetaries in minutes if I don't dig them.

[MatthewVanitas]

Chris gave me his permission to post his Etsy message reply here in the thread, though he hopes to drop by in person later:

Thank you for your interest in the Alpaca tuners! These are going to look wicked on your Eastman.

I read through the forum, and there are a lot of concerns. I'm glad you contacted me so I can help answer some questions.

RE: the gearing ratio. multidon is correct, they are 40:1 geared ratio equivalent. Like the Steinbergers, it takes 40 turns to move the string 1 inch. To change strings, you do need an allen wrench. $0.50 at the hardware store for replacements.

One big concern I read is about the strings departure angle. These were designed using similar string departure radius' as the Steinberger gearless tuners, approximately 2mm. The radius is shined to a near mirror finish. There is no string 'bumping' as it rides over the curve, and the motion is brilliantly smooth. You won't be able to notice the difference between a wound string and solid. And because they are linear and not winding around a peg, there is no slippage. These were built for guitars, and as such they accommodate a lumpy wound .06 E string without any issue, and we've solved one of the problems of the Steinberger's; slipping on strings smaller than .01.


Re: Tobin's concern about wear. These are made of 303 stainless, which is typically used for bushings, gears, and shafts. 303 has a hardness of 240 on the Rockwell scale. PhosBronz strings have a hardness of 85, roughly 3 times softer. Although grooving may happen over time, it will be a long time. The reality is that after the initial tuning, the string doesn't move much during session re-tunes. The mirror finish also helps reduce the friction and likelihood of long term grooving.

With regard to dschonbrun's concern about straight pull. These tuners are a different design than that of the Alpaca guitar. These are specifically designed for the 90 deg entry. They were engineered to be direct replacements for the Steinbergers which are no longer available for retail sale.

And, as Jacob pointed out, you don't want to forget the protective booties! I throw these in because it does keep the dirt and grime out.

Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the discussion. Feel free to email me any other questions or comments. Chris@alpacaguitar.com

Cheers,
Chris.

[Mandoplumb]

To each his own. I don't see how you would not have problems with the design of these tuners, but maybe they would eliminate other problems. Really after reading all the posts I came to the conclusion that the OP needs a mandolin made of pig iron, something indestructible.

[Walt]

I'm about to take the 8 cheap tuners off my Eastman Airline electric mandola and go to four-string, and I was looking for durable and compact tuners since I carry my mandola around traveling, on the subway, etc and it gets dinged up sometimes.

Then I ran across these, which I'm finding fascinating. They're US$25/per, made of stainless steel and naval bronze, with a 1:40 gear ratio: https://www.etsy.com/listing/4642752...achine#reviews





Before anyone asks, yes I did contact the builder and ask them to provide specifics as to weight, as I could imagine these being heavy. Though in my situation with only 4 strings I'm not too worried.

What do folks think, could be cool on a mandolin?

These look interesting. Be sure to keep us posted once they come in. I'd particularly like to know how much they weigh.

[gtani7]

Interesting, did you search for lightweight guitar tuners (I think they have titanium ones available) or even violin pegs. Violin pegs in light woods (not ebony) or ABS plastic work great, but reaming that peghead would be tricky.

Also these Steinbergers which I think are different from thos on headless guitars: https://guitarchitecture.org/2010/10...tuners-review/