Is a flat top a good "campfire mandolin"?

[Stevo75]

I'm looking to get a "beater" mandolin that I won't worry about on camping trips, travel, etc. I don't really want to beat it up, so maybe "beater" is not a fair description, but you know what I mean. It will probably be subjected to large temperature swings, changes in humidity, etc. I won't intentionally leave it in a hot or cold car if I can help it, but sometimes I won't be able to help it.

I would like to get something that I'd enjoy playing outside of the campfire context - a nice mandolin in it's own right. So I don't want to get a cheap pac-rim arch top.

I've seen flat top mandolins pop on the classifieds for a few hundred bucks (OK maybe $500-$600) and think they might be what I'm looking for (an old Flatiron pancake maybe). It would be nice to have because it's different than an arch top, f-hole mandolin and would help with MAS a little bit. Plus I'd be less worried about it compared to my Summit.

So here's my question: are flat top mandolins more or less sensitive to changes in humidity and temperature? I'm thinking a flat top would handle camping conditions better than an arch top but maybe I'm wrong about that.

Let me know what you think. Thanks!

[allenhopkins]

There are two main problems that I've experienced from "camping conditions" -- i.e. fairly rapid changes in temperature and humidity. This is exclusive of damage caused by the exigencies of transporting a mandolin on hikes, biking, etc. The problems are cracking caused by drying out, and finish crazing caused by rapid warming of a very cold instrument.

Unfortunately, the "answer," for better or worse, to risks like these, is to get the kind of mandolin you don't want: laminated construction, somewhat over-built, durable modern finish. The typical $200 Asian import, perhaps -- somewhat unsatisfying acoustically, but rugged.

If not that, you get no real benefit from a flat-top as against a carved arch-top; thin, straight-grain wood will split along the grain lines if the wood cells get too dry and shrink. Thin non-polymer finishes don't necessarily craze more rapidly than thicker ones, but they do craze. Good mandolins, for acoustical reasons, may be more lightly braced, or have thinner body wood, than the budget imports, and thus suffer quicker "ding-ing" or other damage.

The type of mandolin you're considering would be fun to play and sound quite different from a carved-top f-hole, but wouldn't necessarily be less subject to damage. Definitely devote some thought to the kind of case you get, whether a well-fitting hardshell, or an adequately padded soft shell. Consider some sort of radiant-heat-reflective case cover that would minimize the "hot car" syndrome, and get adequate in-case humidification. The greatest risk to a "camping" instrument occurs when you're not playing it -- storing it, transporting it, leaving it out around the campsite, fighting off coyotes with it...

The best precaution, perhaps, is to not spend too much for an instrument you plan to use "off-road," and be prepared to accept the risks that such usage entails. You seem to think $5-600 is OK to spend, and there are some nice used flat-tops available in that range. Allocate some of that budget to the best case you can get for your money, and -- goes without saying -- take precautions to minimize your risk exposure. I think a Big Muddy, used Flatiron "pancake," Crystal Forest, or such-like, might well suit your needs. Don't, however, count on it being more durable than an arch-top.

Addendum: for years, my "beater" mandolins have been Strad-O-Lins, the 50-80-year-old "cheapo" US brand, that I was able to pick up for less than $300 (harder to do that now). They're not, in general, flat-tops, so you do lose the acoustic difference from your Summit to some extent. Strads do tend to be durable, non-"bling-y," and acoustically decent. Just a thought.

[Steve L]

A good flat top is an all solid wood mandolin that's pretty much subject to the same problems of temperature and humidity as a solid arch top. If I were you, I'd get a laminated arch top...I think that would stand up to the conditions you describe a bit better. I think what you want and what you need are at odds with each other. Good luck.

[Stevo75]

Thanks guys. I think you're right, what I want and what I need are at odds. You've answered my main question, and now I know that a flat-top isn't any less prone to damage from camping conditions than a carved arch-top.

Here's a related question: is it possible to have decent flat-top or carved arch-top mandolin as a camping mandolin and keep it safe? Or is damage inevitable?

I would get a good case, would have in-case humidification, and would take care of it (no coyote fighting). But around here (Colorado and Utah) there will definitely be times where the mandolin would be left in a hot car in full sun for several hours (I would try to cover it up). And there will be other times (possibly within the same 24 hours) that it will be in the car overnight when it dips below freezing. Is that just asking for damage? Or with proper care and luck would it be OK?

[Paul Kotapish]

I have a nice pancake style hatchet that was made as the demo instrument for a mandolin-in-a-week-class. Very nice, instructor-built model. It doesn't work for me for gigs, but it's pretty perfect as a beach/camping/campfire instrument. I still pay attention and try to keep it out of harm's way, keep it hidden, keep it insulated when it gets hot, etc., and so far so good.

Although I like the thing, I wouldn't be devastated by its loss. I invested in a solid Breedlove case that fits it well and offers some additional protection.

A number of friends have nice Strad-O-Lins that seem to work really well for their beaters.

Travel anecdote: On my first trip to Hawaii I took along my very nice, Carlson-signed, never-should-have-sold-it Flatiron Artist A-5. On the road to Hana in Maui -- a notoriously long and twisty route -- the four of us stopped for a brief visit to an arboretum that specialized in native plants. It was beautiful, but when we got back to our car, we discovered it had been ransacked. Everything was taken ... except my mandolin and bag of clothes. I suspect the thieves thought it was just a tourist ukulele and left it alone. Nobody would want my clothes.

[sblock]

I have a nice pancake style hatchet that was made as the demo instrument for a mandolin-in-a-week-class. Very nice, instructor-built model. It doesn't work for me for gigs, but it's pretty perfect as a beach/camping/campfire instrument. I still pay attention and try to keep it out of harm's way, keep it hidden, keep it insulated when it gets hot, etc., and so far so good.

Although I like the thing, I wouldn't be devastated by its loss. I invested in a solid Breedlove case that fits it well and offers some additional protection.

A number of friends have nice Strad-O-Lins that seem to work really well for their beaters.

Travel anecdote: On my first trip to Hawaii I took along my very nice, Carlson-signed, never-should-have-sold-it Flatiron Artist A-5. On the road to Hana in Maui -- a notoriously long and twisty route -- the four of us stopped for a brief visit to an arboretum that specialized in native plants. It was beautiful, but when we got back to our car, we discovered it had been ransacked. Everything was taken ... except my mandolin and bag of clothes. I suspect the thieves thought it was just a tourist ukulele and left it alone. Nobody would want my clothes.

Reminds me of the old joke where you leave your banjo in the car unattended, only to return and discover that the car has been broken into. The car now holds two banjos!

[JeffD]

Leaving a mandolin in a car is not good, no matter what. Sometimes it is unavoidable, I suppose.

Overnight in freezing cold is less of a problem in my experience, as long as you let it warm up slowly the next day.

All day in the hot sun is the worst. My first mandolin destroyed itself that way. I don't think there is a way to guarantee there won't be a problem. One thing I have done is to use one of those reflecting space blankets. You can get them on line for cheap. I run the car air conditioning so the car is really cooled down inside. Then I pack the car and put the space blanket on top of everything, shiny side up. It takes longer for that part of the car to warm up. But eventually it will warm up, so I would not call this a solution, but perhaps a way to mitigate the risk a little bit.

[NursingDaBlues]

FWIW, I wish RainSong would produce an A style carbon fiber mandolin.

[multidon]

I wonder if the problems associated with camping conditions could be mitigated somewhat by avoiding a spruce top, or any other softwood. The expansion and contraction of the wood due to temperature and humidity changes would be the same all over the instrument if the entire instrument were made of the same wood. For example, the Big Muddy M-11 is made of all Hondouran mahogany, back, sides, and top. Seems like a hardwood top would be more stable than a softwood one, too. Usually mandolinists avoid hardwood tops, but for some reason mahogany is an exception and some like it, especially on flat tops.

[allenhopkins]

...there will definitely be times where the mandolin would be left in a hot car in full sun for several hours (I would try to cover it up). And there will be other times (possibly within the same 24 hours) that it will be in the car overnight when it dips below freezing. Is that just asking for damage? Or with proper care and luck would it be OK?

Well, if you take steps to insulate the instrument from direct solar rays, or surround it with a radiant-reflective cover (see Post #7), you reduce your chances of damage. Above a certain temperature, mahogany becomes very pliable, and string tension will warp a mahogany neck. Also, glue softens and lets go if made really hot. I sometimes wrap a blanket around the case, or put it under a "mover's quilt" that I keep in my Honda Element.

Surprisingly, a car trunk may be better than the passenger compartment, since it doesn't get direct sunlight through the windows. Temperature does have to get significantly over 100º F to really affect the mahogany.

With regard to cold, the real problem is not freezing temperatures, but rapid temperature change -- especially going from below-freezing cold to room temperature immediately. Wood and the finish layer expand at different rates, and the finish comes free from the wood in a pattern of cracks called crazing, checking or alligatoring. Keeping the instrument cased, letting mandolin and case warm up as gradually as possible, and not opening the case for perhaps 30-60 minutes -- depending on temperature differential -- are tactics to reduce risk.

"Paranoia strikes deep," as the song has it, and most instruments never get damaged by being kept or moved at different temperatures, so I wouldn't get too obsessive about it. The one time I experienced it was with a Martin guitar that was in my car for an afternoon gig (in a sorta insulated gig bag), then left there all evening when temperature got down to -4º F. When I took it into my house -- even though I left it in the gig bag to warm up -- I found the next morning significantly crazed top lacquer. Didn't affect anything but appearance, and I've been playing it ever since, over a decade, putting so much wear and tear on it that the finish damage fits right in with the general appearance of a 00-42 that (at least in part) is 77 years old this year.

[Stevo75]

I would definitely not keep it exposed to solar rays. I have tinted windows, which may help some. I'd leave the mandolin on the floor between the front and back seats. Then cover it with all the rest of my stuff so that it would be nicely insulated. But a car in full sun (and everything in it) will eventually heat up no matter how much you try to insulate something.

I'll probably just get something cheaper than what I have that still sounds good and hope for the best. Or maybe I get a flat top AND a true beater mandolin. I should know better than to come on this forum and ask these kinds of questions. The answer is always, "get one of each." Seriously though, thanks for the info!

[Stevo75]

Allen, I'm from Rochester originally, but haven't lived there in 20 years. My parents and a brother are still there so I go back to visit from time to time (out in Chili on the west side).

[allenhopkins]

Allen, I'm from Rochester originally, but haven't lived there in 20 years. My parents and a brother are still there so I go back to visit from time to time (out in Chili on the west side).

And you know enough to pronounce it "Chy-lye," as we uninformed Rochesterians have always done.

[pheffernan]

The right flattop is simply a good mandolin. A used one at the right price -- whether due to wear, repair, or just a motivated seller-- would make a good campfire mandolin.

[Charles E.]

I would think that a pancake style mandolin would make a good choice for your travels. They are compact, light weight and can sound very good. I took a flat top mandolin to Belize last year and it did just fine. I would suggest a high quality soft case like the Access stage series for travel.
Good luck with your search.

[Charles E.]

Some thing like this might be worth looking into.........

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/110484#110484

[EdHanrahan]

Just one fool's opinion:
Going back to the early '70s, my opinion of Ovation guitars (besides some sounding not-so-bad and others sounding dead, with little relation to their price or place in the hierarchy) was that they were successful as being the instruments most likely to survive a tour of Viet Nam. Eventually, I ended up with a decent-sounding way-bottom-of-the-line Celebrity model as my camping guitar and it has done well for decades... still does, in spite of a top crack that may be in the finish only. (Don't know, don't care; it just plays well & sounds good in the woods). That said:

Ovation made two levels of mandolin, both with the multi-hole "epaulet" top. The lower one, that usually sounds poorer, has a solid neck, while the better (at twice the price?) has a laminated 5-piece neck, w/ 2 thin dark stripes going down the back. That one seems to sound pretty reliably okay. Sorry that I don't recall the model numbers, but the neck stripes of the better one clearly show at the top of he headstock - an easy giveaway! Don't think they're available new anymore, but they do show in the classifieds every so often.

Current camping weapons are the same ol' reliable Celebrity OR, for mando, a cheapo blem Rover RM-35S. Hey, it's worked so far and, if it self-destructs, I've already gotten more than my money out of it!

[darrylicshon]

I was just going to mention my ovation which I take camping and fishing , when I know that it might rain or no shade. But alot of times I end up taking my J Bovier with me, I just make sure I keep moving it to the shade , keep it in my tent while I'm not using it, my J Bovier has gotten wet probably gotten too hot , but it hasn't damaged it yet. This year I am taking an oval hole with me , just haven't decided which one yet. You pancake should work fine, but be aware of what you do with it. Ovation also makes a cheaper line called applause , you can find them pretty cheap

[Charlie Bernstein]

Yes, but the rangers will ask you to remove the tuners, strings, and tailpiece from the ashes.

[Upis Land]

I would definitely not keep it exposed to solar rays. I have tinted windows, which may help some. I'd leave the mandolin on the floor between the front and back seats. Then cover it with all the rest of my stuff so that it would be nicely insulated. But a car in full sun (and everything in it) will eventually heat up no matter how much you try to insulate something.

Get some rain visors for your car so you can keep the windows cracked, and the car won't heat up so much.

[CES]

I love my Flatiron 1N, enough that I picked up an Eastman 315 on clearance for <500 dollars that's my current beater. The Ovation idea is a good one...if you want a Flat Top, though, go for it! Great little mandolins!!

That said, another option for your mando if you have to store it in a car in Sunlight is to wrap it up tightly in a trash bag (to waterproof it) and store it in a cooler. Easier to do later in a trip when you've cleared some space, but I know a couple of festival goers who have a "mandolin dedicated" cooler. But, they have trailers or campers and plenty of space...

[Cary Fagan]

My only additional bit of advice, given the harsh conditions, is to get something that won't make you too unhappy if it doesn't survive.

[fatt-dad]

My '84 Flatiron 1N is no worse for wear from it's multiple trips to the beach (not the beach house, the actual beach) and field trips to wherever I go. When at the beach, I carry it in a Superior gig bag and also carry an umbrella. When I return, there's the typical string change and a blowing of sand grains from the tuners. I also use some oil to discourage rust on gears.



I'm not sure I actually need a, "Beach" or "Campfire" mandolin. I've ultimately decided that the threat of peril is not as great as our imagination. That said, I do love my 1N and thoroughly enjoy playing it. I would not carry an instrument I don't like to the beach or campfire!

So, yes, you need another mandolin!

f-d

[Stevo75]

Well here's what I went and did:

Instead of waiting for a good deal on a used flat-top that's a little beat up, I went and bought a new one from Terry at Crystal Forest. I got all excited about flat tops yesterday (particularly the pancake style) and once I saw how nice his are (and really well priced!) I had to have one. So anyway, I probably won't want to take that one camping either so I'm still in the same boat.

[Bertram Henze]

Yes, but the rangers will ask you to remove the tuners, strings, and tailpiece from the ashes.

You beat me to it. The other thing I would be concerned about is concentration: how do I keep on playing while a centipede is crawling up inside my pants...