Talk to me about old National tenors

[keithb]

I've got the itch to pick up a vintage National tenor guitar. I'd love some pointers on what to look for in terms of common problems, and what price point I should be expecting for a "player condition" instrument.

I should note that this instrument will end up at festivals, bars, jams, etc, so I'm not looking for a museum piece - any amount of wear is fine as long as playability is good.

[Michael Eck]

Action can be a situation with these old beauties. Surprisingly, even though some can be difficult to play because of high action, many will fret true pretty far up the neck.

[Charles E.]

Michael makes a good point about the necks on these. I had to have the neck reset on my National Triolian tenor years ago. Another common problem is the tailpiece on some crack where it bends at the edge.

I personally like the single cone - steel bodied National tenors as opposed to the three cone -brass bodied tenors. I feel they have more volume and a tone that growls. The tricones sound very nice but are a bit mellower.

Here is an example of a fair single cone.....

http://www.thefolkshop.com/_p/prd1/3...onator-(c1928)

NFI

[kmmando]

Here's my tenor tricone, a 1928 one. More mellow and zingy than the single cone, which has a more bluesy rawness, more mid to bass response. I play the tricone much more than the single one, but enjoy them both. Great volume amd tone.

[kmmando]

[Charles E.]

I was hoping yo would chime in here Kevin. Those (excellent) videos really give an idea in the difference in tone between the single cone and the tricone.

[keithb]

Thanks indeed! Great videos.

I'm definitely looking for a single cone.

I blame this video for starting the TGAS:



Obviously it helps that he's a killer player, but the tone he's getting from that thing is amazing.

[keithb]

Any difference between the chrome and painted (enameled?) models other than color?

[kmmando]

I do recall playing a laminated wood single cone tenor owned by Chipper Thomson of Taos in 2003. It seems it was a prototype. It sounded really warm and quite wonderful. I wonder if he still has it and could demo it?

Of course, the modern National Resophonics company are now finally making a tenor. I haven't heard much about them yet. Elderly has them listed.

First time I heard these was the one Alec Finn owns, which I have played on occasion, and it has a more metallic, less warm sound than my earlier single cone. I think his is a mid 30s one. This is the opening track on De Danann's 1980 lp The Mist Covered Mountains, where Alec and Charlie Piggott double track the opening jig on the old National, a real favourite sound of mine.



Hope this is of interest! I love these old reso-tenors!

[pheffernan]

I've got the itch to pick up a vintage National tenor guitar.

Must it be vintage? The new National tenors at Elderly look tasty: https://www.elderly.com/national-ten...steel-case.htm

[Jim Garber]

I have a circa 1928 National Style 1 single cone silver tenor (pear-shaped). Nice sounding but I think I want to tune it down to Irish tuning GDAE. Any suggestions to gauges to use to avoid tailpiece cracking?

[djweiss]

I've got both of mine tuned to GDAE (octave tuning)...I use the 6,5,3,2 strings of a medium guitar pack. They are probably my favorite tenor guitars, and have lots of frets available before the neck meets the body.

[kmmando]

I tend to use standard single guitar length ball end strings steel for the E and A, phosphor Bronze for the D and G, usually about

10s 16s 32s 42s maybe a bit heavier if there in the shop instead 11 17 34 44

Works for me, rings the trebles and drives the bass in the cones.

A good luthier could do a reset, even sort a neck wobble. Steve Evans of Beltona Guitars in England did a fabulous job on my tricone, (UPS had dislodged the neck joint in transit). It's one of my very best set up and playable instruments still.

I think the concensus is that the earlier late 20s bodies have more brass in them generally than the mid 30s ones which have a lot more steel, and that seems to affect the tone differently. Certainly the one I have and Alec Finn's one does sound quite different. Much more is discussed in the definitive book "The History and Artistry of National Resonator Instruments" if you can find it.

[kmmando]

https://www.elderly.com/history-and-...nstruments.htm

[Jim Garber]

I've got both of mine tuned to GDAE (octave tuning)...I use the 6,5,3,2 strings of a medium guitar pack. They are probably my favorite tenor guitars, and have lots of frets available before the neck meets the body.

That sounds pretty heavy to me esp the .056 on the bottom. That sounds a little scary to me in terms of tension. I would watch that tailpiece crease for signs of metal fatigue.

[pheffernan]

I have a circa 1928 National Style 1 single cone silver tenor (pear-shaped). Nice sounding but I think I want to tune it down to Irish tuning GDAE. Any suggestions to gauges to use to avoid tailpiece cracking?

John Pearse makes a #450 set of tenor guitar strings recommended for Irish tuning on a 23" scale with gauges of .013 / .020 / .030 / .042: https://www.elderly.com/john-pearse-...guitar-set.htm

[fox]

John Pearse string sets are pretty popular but from my experience & through a lot of experimentation using many styles and makes of tenor guitar (although not a resonator) I have found .12p .20w 30w 46w produce the best overall sound.
.13 also works well with some guitars. .18w is also great on some, .30w seems to work very well on every guitar I have tried but I find a .42 does not quite do it for me and .45-6w really makes a difference!
Of course that is based on my own personal taste and ears however there is some logic behind the gauges as well.
12 20 30 45 all produce a very similar tension on each string, all being close to 20lb per string.
My experiments are based around using a .60 pick and a 23" scale, however using the magic 20lb per string, I have found the formula works on 20" 21" 23" & 25" scales.... for me at least...
My local music shop sells single guitar strings, the shop owner happily makes up my sets & they work out at a very similar price to pre packed sets that don't actually sound as good.

[keithb]

Must it be vintage? The new National tenors at Elderly look tasty: https://www.elderly.com/national-ten...steel-case.htm

It doesn't HAVE to be an old guitar, but there is a certain "cool" factor, and they're half the price of new production.

I think the concensus is that the earlier late 20s bodies have more brass in them generally than the mid 30s ones which have a lot more steel, and that seems to affect the tone differently. Certainly the one I have and Alec Finn's one does sound quite different. Much more is discussed in the definitive book "The History and Artistry of National Resonator Instruments" if you can find it.

Can you characterize the difference? It's unlikely that I'll be able to play one of each in a short enough timeframe to compare them.

[derbex]

I have a circa 1928 National Style 1 single cone silver tenor (pear-shaped). Nice sounding but I think I want to tune it down to Irish tuning GDAE. Any suggestions to gauges to use to avoid tailpiece cracking?

A chap walked into the pub the Easter Monday afternoon with one of those and was kind enough to let me have a go, lovely sound. He had it in CGCG I think, but he was happy for me to retune it to CGDA.

[Jim Garber]

John Pearse makes a #450 set of tenor guitar strings recommended for Irish tuning on a 23" scale with gauges of .013 / .020 / .030 / .042: https://www.elderly.com/john-pearse-...guitar-set.htm

I use those John Pearse strings on my Vega Tubaphone banjo. They seem just about right gauge but I might change them for nickel strings. I will check the scale on the National and see what makes sense.

[djweiss]

That sounds pretty heavy to me esp the .056 on the bottom. That sounds a little scary to me in terms of tension. I would watch that tailpiece crease for signs of metal fatigue.

My last set I used was 0.53, .042, .024 and .016...I usually tune a full fifth lower than standard "CGDA", to either FCGD or GDAE...depending on how the feel of the strings is. With the last set, FCGD was too loose, so I went up to GDAE with no problems.

[keithb]

Well that search didn't last long! A forum member saw this thread and offered up a National for sale.

Man, does it sound sweet.

[Charles E.]

Sweet!