K&K Mandolin Twin- Issues w/ Too Much Treble?

[Neal Clark]

All,

I recently had a K&K Mandolin Twin professionally installed in my Flatiron F5 Artist. I run the Twin into a Redeye, ending at a Soundcraft MFXi mixer. The problem I'm running into is that the pickup is really harsh on the treble, which is only magnified by the Redeye pre. I've got the treble turned down 1/4 on the mixer pot and virtually all the way down on the Redeye, but I'm still getting more harsh high end than I'd like. Any lower and I start to really screw up the low end sound. The boost on the Redeye only pronounces this problem as well. I've got the mid sweeping the quack frequency (700hz-1100hz-ish).

I should say that, straight into the mixer without a preamp, the K&K is anything but impressive sounding. Super thin.

Any thoughts on dealing with this? The pickup looks like it's installed in the correct location per K&K's instructions. The mandolin sounds great, so it's certainly not the cause of the problem. A bit frustrating to say the least.

Thanks,

Neal

[Drew Streip]

That's odd. I've got the Twin Fusion in my Eastman 515. For simplicity, depending on the venue, I usually just use a DI box (no preamp) straight into the mixer. It honestly gives me as good an amplified sound as I could hope for. Even running straight into a guitar amp, it's very easy for me to adjust the EQ for a good sound.

You could try moving the pickup around. Since mine is the external jack, I just installed it myself with the blue Loctite putty. It hasn't come unstuck in the year I've had it, but it'd be easy to readjust if I wanted to.

Yours might be more difficult to remove if your luthier used the supplied tape or CA glue. But it sounds like it could be a mechanical issue, given your knowledge of the electrics. I'm a dummy (I like to just plug and play) but mine sounds great.

(another thought -- what's the source of the harshness? Too much high end on chops? Single-note issues too? Enhanced attack / pick noise? If you can identify that, it might help with a solution.)

[Jim]

2 pickup system? Are you sure you are getting signal from both? Wired in phase?

[pglasse]

Hi Neal,

I can't say that I have a real suggestion for you but can tell you my experience with with both your pickup and pre-amp.

I use both the K&K Twin Internal pickup and the Red-Eye pre-amp an my acoustic mandolins and tenor guitar. I am VERY happy with the performance of this combination.

I do roll off some treble with the Red-Eye. With the indicator "arrow" on the knob straight up you're at flat. I generally roll the treble about half-way down -- that is (if you were looking at the Red-Eye from the edge) to the 3 o-clock position. Depending on the room, PA, etc I may roll the treble on the board to the 10 o' clock position (viewed facing the knob on your board).

If something similar is not working for you I'm guessing that you've got other variables at play (pickup placement or installation, you instrument, different PA.....).

Sorry I couldn't be more help. Again I'm a real fan of both the K&K and the Red-Eye. They're both top-notch. Best of luck tracking down the issues.

[Neal Clark]

I'm getting a signal from both pickups. I assume it's wired correctly- straight from K&K. Installed with the supplied tape (2-layers), so it'll be a trick to move it around.

The high end/harshness is during chops, single note and when I really start digging in on the A and E. It's just not a good tone, and I'm surprised at how much I'm having to drop out the treble (which still isn't getting me where I want to be).

PA system is high-quality, so no problem coming at the back end, either.

[Steve Sorensen]

Moving the treble pickup to inside the tonebar and slightly back (~1/2") towards the tailpiece might help get the balance that you are looking for.

Steve

[Bad Monkey]

are both elements well attached?
just out of curiosity, what pick are you using?

[Neal Clark]

Both are well attached. Using a Bluechip 60.

I guess I may have to try to get this thing unstuck and moved. It's x-braced, which creates a slightly different situation.

[Bad Monkey]

when I'm installing a dual pickup (or any piezo pickup really) I stick in on top of the instrument and give it a test drive. The manufacturers instructions are usually pretty darned close, but on occasion I'll find one that just doesn't like the traditional placement very much.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

I've had to aggressively roll out treble with the K&K on some mandolins. I don't use a redeye but in my Fishman loudbox I've had some mandolins where I roll all of the treble out, and there would still be lots of treble. I still love the pickup, just sharing my experience.

M

[Steve Ostrander]

I guess I may have to try to get this thing unstuck and moved. It's x-braced, which creates a slightly different situation.

Be careful, it's easy to damage the PU when you are removing it, if it is stuck with the tape or CA glue.

[Perry]

It could be your install none the less...was it glued? taped?

sometimes a mandolin and a K&K are not a good match

I use mine with a Red Eye preamp and roll the treble cut all the way off...which means I am cutting the treble...conversely on my K&K equipped guitars I roll the treble all the way on

sounds great in both cases

[pops1]

I have not found the tape to not work well. I wouldn't trust it. I did use two layers of tape, but super glued each layer and the tape to the top and the pickup. In other words it's glued in but with two layers of tape to warm it up. Try pressing the treble pickup tight to the top and play it right away. If it is not seated fully it will not sound right and bright would be one sound also hollow.

[DHopkins]

Like many others, I'm using K&K with a RedEye pre-amp (in/with my Breedlove) and I've had nothing but good sounds coming out. On the mixer, I turn the mid-range down a little to hide some of the pick sound.

[Mandobart]

Are you sure its not wolf tones? Are you muting the afterlength with grommets/leather strips/expensive wood nymphs?

[almeriastrings]

It sounds like a placement issue to me. Even small distances can make quite a difference. There are no obvious issues with your signal chain. That should be absolutely fine.

Double check that each element of the transducer (especially the 'bass' one) is actually working OK. With it plugged it gently tap or touch it - you should hear that very clearly. While a defective element (or connection to the element) is rare - it can happen.

[Groundcoat]

These are all great suggestions for you Neal Clark. I'm a huge fan of K&K pickups because they do sound so good. I like Bad Monkey's idea for testing placement and then I would definitely use the superglue as the adhesive.

[Neal Clark]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to try to do my best w/ the EQ for now and will have my luthier work on moving it next time I'm in his neck of the woods. FYI- I spoke w/ K&K and they said that the recommended placement is really right under the ends of the bridge, which is odd given that their own diagrams show the ideal placement actually next to the widest part of the f-holes.

Neal

[lenf12]

I did not have very good luck using the double sided tape supplied with the K & K Twin pickup; too much ambient and handling noise and uncontrollable trebles. I reinstalled the pickup using Blu Tak putty about the thickness of dime (10 cents US) and am very pleased with the results. YMMV

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Doug Edwards]

I too recently installed the K&K internal twin. It sounded great through the Church's sound system w/o a preamp.
Last night at a wedding it sounded unbalanced through my friend's PA system. I'll be getting a preamp for it soon

[almeriastrings]

Yes - if you don't have a high impedance DI box (or preamp) of your own, you will get different results on each system as the input impedance on different amp and PA desks varies enormously. So, you can end up sounding pretty thin and quacky on some, but be OK on others. Your own constant 'front end' will solve that.

[Billy Packard]

Now I'm concerned...

Two wonderful guitars of mine sound great with the K&K installed. I decided I would go ahead and have the mandolin version installed in my Gilchrist A3 but now I'm not so sure. The Gil has a rich, full voice that I want to reproduce as closely as possible. It is not overly bright, (Engleman, Sugar Maple and X-Brace), and I don't want it to be bright.

Comments...?

Billy

billypackardmandolin.com

ps A quick addendum to the above note. I just spoke with Jack at K&K who was most informative regarding the topic discussed. I highly recommend calling him directly at,
800-867-6863 and press #2 for tech support.

[mandroid]

Move the treble side element to another spot on the soundboard?

test the location on the outside, first.. then put them on the reverse side
when you are happy with what you hear..

[pops1]

Now I'm concerned...

Two wonderful guitars of mine sound great with the K&K installed. I decided I would go ahead and have the mandolin version installed in my Gilchrist A3 but now I'm not so sure. The Gil has a rich, full voice that I want to reproduce as closely as possible. It is not overly bright, (Engleman, Sugar Maple and X-Brace), and I don't want it to be bright.

Comments...?

Billy

billypackardmandolin.com

I have a K&K in my Brentrup and it is a very rich sounding mandolin and not bright. I have had K&K's in other mandolins, when I play both side to side the Brentrup reproduces the richer sound and you can hear the quality of the mandolin over other mandolins that are decent sounding but nowhere as good. Plugged in I can hear an huge difference. I did a different install tho, I glued tape to the pickup, glued tape to another piece of tape, then glued the final tape to the top. I like the buffer and it seems to be warmer, tho the other mandolin I have is just glued to the top and it is not bright either soooo.

[Billy Packard]

Hey Pops1, what you describe is what Jack at K&K said to do, including using super-glue to attach the double-tape to the mandolin.