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Thread: Played a Virzi

  1. #1

    Default Played a Virzi

    Finally had a Virzi in my hands yesterday at Retrofret in Brooklyn, a 20s Gibson A snakehead. Started playing it before I realized it was in there. Immediately noted a sweetness and mellowness, and felt it sounded closer to a "modern" mandolin than an old Gibson.

    Sweet and mellow, of course, are the common terms used to describe Virzi-equipped mandos and I now know—empirically—why.

    A beautiful sound to play solo, not sure if it would work in a band, and certainly wouldn't work in the contexts I play (jug band and folk). A delight to experience, though.

    The non-Virzi snake next to it, however, would work just fine! (I didn't buy I either).
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    Mandolin user MontanaMatt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    A friend of mine has a fiddle with a Virzi, it is phenomenal! I've only played and heard one fiddle with it...it is stuck in my mind like the first time I saw and heard aa Ferrari
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Eck View Post
    Sweet and mellow, of course, are the common terms used to describe Virzi-equipped mandos and I now know—empirically—why. A beautiful sound to play solo, not sure if it would work in a band, and certainly wouldn't work in the contexts I play (jug band and folk).
    Interesting, since the Virzi was introduced to enhance the tone of mandolins played in a band (orchestra) setting. Meanwhile, some have been removed from Loars in the hopes of improving their performance as soloist (read volume) instruments.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    The Loar F-5 I played at RetroFret a few years ago had a Virzi and while I didn't have a similar Loar there to compare it to, I liked the tones that were comping out of that one.
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Quote Originally Posted by pheffernan View Post
    Interesting, since the Virzi was introduced to enhance the tone of mandolins played in a band (orchestra) setting. Meanwhile, some have been removed from Loars in the hopes of improving their performance as soloist (read volume) instruments.
    I've only played one mandolin with a Virzi (Tom Ellis's unsigned Loar), and I thought it would be fine in any band setting except for bluegrass. And I think that's the difference: a mandolin orchestra, where these were originally meant to fit in, has a more balanced sound around mandolins. In bluegrass, the mandolin needs a sharper and more focused projection.
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post
    And I think that's the difference: a mandolin orchestra, where these were originally meant to fit in, has a more balanced sound around mandolins. In bluegrass, the mandolin needs a sharper and more focused projection.
    It sounds like the Virzi is designed for situations in which instruments collaborate rather than compete. There's interesting reading here http://www.mandozine.com/media/instruments/virzi.html , particularly the comments by Tony Williamson.
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    All points taken, and true. Less volume from the Virzi, and I need that sharpness of sound for the jug band. The Virzi is not a bluegrass sound, but quite lovely; would be great in a chamber-type setting or jazz combo for sure.

    I see it's listed in the classifieds—NFI.
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    It is perfect for bg fiddle though. My friends fiddle is dark and rich, with tons of cut too.
    Not sure it it is a period build or a retrofit, I'll ask.
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Mike Black Mandolins has a video on his site with comparison of two gorgeous oval hole A's, one with and one without Virzi. Must listen carefully, but the difference is there. Both instruments came off the same bench at the same time.
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaMatt View Post
    A friend of mine has a fiddle with a Virzi, it is phenomenal! I've only played and heard one fiddle with it...it is stuck in my mind like the first time I saw and heard aa Ferrari
    This violin with Virzi sold on eBay recently. You can see a small part of the Virzi label in one photo.
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Snyder View Post
    Mike Black Mandolins has a video on his site with comparison of two gorgeous oval hole A's, one with and one without Virzi. Must listen carefully, but the difference is there. Both instruments came off the same bench at the same time.
    There's good discussion of the difference here: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...-Black-7-amp-8

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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    I didn`t hear any difference in those oval hole models but in the past I have never liked the Virzi in an F-5 model...But I play bluegrass, I suppose all mandolins of different styles and shapes have a place and a type of music that bets suits them and the person that is playing them...

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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    I could hear a definite difference in the two mandolins with the Virzi mandolin having a superior sound. It is richer, colorful and more interesting. I would like to own one that sounds like the one in the demo. I think it would be great for solo performing.

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    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Not sure how you can attribute differences in tone because of the virzi, when there are numerous other reasons to base an opinion on.

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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    Not sure how you can attribute differences in tone because of the virzi, when there are numerous other reasons to base an opinion on.
    Well, about as many of those reasons that can be removed have been. The two instruments were built to the same basic design by the same man on the same bench at the same time with the same materials. And the two instruments were played at the same time by the same man with the same strings and the same pick under the same recording conditions. I'm not saying it's perfect -- no comparison ever is -- but it's hard to imagine controlling more variables in the equation so as to isolate the effect of a Virzi, at least on transverse braced ovals as built by Mike Black.
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    And the two instruments were played at the same time by the same man...
    Wow. I'd better watch that video!



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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Quote Originally Posted by tiltman View Post
    Wow. I'd better watch that video!
    While Mike Black is certainly a talented man, as both a player and a builder, I never meant to imply that he played two instruments simultaneously, only on the same occasion.
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    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Quote Originally Posted by pheffernan View Post
    Well, about as many of those reasons that can be removed have been. The two instruments were built to the same basic design by the same man on the same bench at the same time with the same materials. And the two instruments were played at the same time by the same man with the same strings and the same pick under the same recording conditions. I'm not saying it's perfect -- no comparison ever is -- but it's hard to imagine controlling more variables in the equation so as to isolate the effect of a Virzi, at least on transverse braced ovals as built by Mike Black.
    Yes I understand all that. However, why would two spruce tops sound identical? Why would two maple backs sound identical? There's two reasons why the mandolins sound different, among numerous other reasons. Regardless of a virzi or not, those two mandos will sound different due to different tops and backs. No virzi needed.

    I've never seen any evidence to indicate a virzi does anything special except add 5 or 10 grams of mass to the top. Whether that is noticeable I don't know. But there are numerous other reasons as pointed out that contribute to differences in tone.

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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    Yes I understand all that. However, why would two spruce tops sound identical? Why would two maple backs sound identical? There's two reasons why the mandolins sound different, among numerous other reasons. Regardless of a virzi or not, those two mandos will sound different due to different tops and backs. No virzi needed.
    Yes I understand all that. However, if the tops come from the same lot of Engelmann, carved to the same graduations, and the backs from the same lot of maple, prepared in the same fashion, then it seems quite possible that any difference in sound will be attributable less to nonidentical tops and backs and more to the introduction of the completely unidentical Virzi.
    Last edited by pheffernan; Apr-21-2017 at 7:09pm.
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    I've never seen any evidence to indicate a virzi does anything special except add 5 or 10 grams of mass to the top. Whether that is noticeable I don't know.
    I've played a lot of mandolins. The Virzi makes a difference.
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Quote Originally Posted by pheffernan View Post
    Yes I understand all that. However, if the tops come from the same lot of Engelmann, carved to the same graduations, and the backs from the same lot of maple, prepared in the same fashion, then it seems quite possible that any difference in sound will be attributable less to nonidentical tops and backs and more to the introduction of the completely unidentical Virzi.
    Wood, even from the same log can have different stiffness and mass. Even a single maple back has differences in stiffness and mass depending upon where you measure it, before its even carved.

    I guess I'm wondering why we automatically assume a virzi is the culprit when we hear a difference in tone. I'm not sure I've ever played two mandos that sounded identical, virzi or not.

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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    I guess I'm wondering why we automatically assume a virzi is the culprit when we hear a difference in tone. I'm not sure I've ever played two mandos that sounded identical, virzi or not.
    I guess I'm wondering why we accept that 10 grams of clay attached to a bridge foot will change the sound of a mandolin but question whether a 15-16 gram Virzi attached to a top would change the sound of a mandolin. No one is suggesting that two mandolins, be they Mike Black's #7 and #8 or any other, are "identical," only that the introduction of the Virzi is the most significant difference between two otherwise similar instruments. There's good reading from Dr. Dave Cohen on the "Virzi thingy" and its effects on an identical mandolin in this thread: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...-Tone-Producer
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    I think we are speaking of apples and oranges here. I'm not suggesting a virzi, or adding 10 grams of anything, doesn't change the tone a bit, it might or might not, because it's a subtle difference... I'm asking why we assume a virzi is the difference we hear when comparing two "identical" mandos, when no two mandos are ever identical.

    A virzi adds weight to the center of a top. You can achieve a similar result by adding the same amount of weight with a little bit of clay. There's no evidence that a virzi does anything other than just that... Adding weight to the top.

    I suggest if folks want to hear what a virzi does, use the clay method. No its not wood, but its a very small amount of mass we are adding. The damping effect would be nil.

    The idea that the virzi does something magical, or produces a special resonant tone, is classic advertising hype.

  31. #24

    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    The idea that the virzi does something magical, or produces a special resonant tone, is classic advertising hype.
    I did not imply any magic in my original post. I have played lots—lots!—of mandolins. When I tried the instrument at Retrofret, with no knowledge that it was a Virzi, I immediately sensed a difference.

    Specifically, having played many Gibsons from many eras, it had a difference in volume, tone, timbre, etc. All the classic descriptors, quieter, sweeter, etc. That's what fascinated me. It did not necessarily attract me. Quite frankly it sounded "modern" to me, like a Collings.

    When I played it next to the other Gibson A—non Virzi—it was not so much for comparison as confirmation. The non-Virzi had the classic "Gibson sound."

    Put clay on the tailpiece, tape a nickel to the headstock, what have you. It made a difference.
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    Default Re: Played a Virzi

    http://www.mandozine.com/media/CGOW/monteleone.html

    Q3
    > John says that Mike Marshall's Loar once had a Virzi and fearlessly with no thought for his own safety says:
    >
    > "This mandolin had originally sported a Virzi tone reducer in it, which
    > was removed before I worked on it. Once a Virzi is removed there are
    > two remaining notches left on the inside wall of each tone bar, where
    > these stupid things used to be attached. I don't know what they were
    > thinking. But I would have loved to have overheard the convincing
    > salespitch that Mr. Virzi sold to Mr. Loar. Amazing!

    Q - WHOA!!!!!!!!! How do you really feel about Virzis, John!
    An unprovoked attack on the memory of the Virzi brothers who are no longer here to defend themselves. This is almost a sacrilege! John, have you ever seen the video "The Sound of the American Mandolin," featuring Tony Williamson and our own Maxwell McCullough. I have that tape and I'll send it to you if you haven't seen it. I thought that Tony and Max pretty well proved that the Virzi's in various old Gibsons enhanced the tone. At least to my ears. They did side-by-side comparisons of As, F-4s, and F-5s, w/ and w/o Virzis. Your gonna hear about this one!

    A - Let it be known that I don't intend to step on anyone's toes, and I may have rattled someone elses cage or two, but I'm have great difficulty trying to recall anyone who ever said to me "gee, I wish I had that Virzi back in my mandolin". Nor have I ever been asked, thank God, to make one and put it in their mandolin.

    It's not often that you will see folks come to the defense of Virzi either. Sure, I'll take you up on your offer. I'd like to see the video but I'll tell you right now that chances are that the microphones, recording, and related engineering might not reveal a fair judgement. However, I do have an open mind about these and other things. You can't be a luthier of good reputation and not comtemplate the good and the rediculous. Perhaps it was during one fo these open minded sessions that Mr. Virzi had one too many thimbles of grappa.

    Regarding the installment of a foreign object inside and under the bridge of [let us say] a Loar mandolin; you could hang a bees nest in there and still be able to appreciate its wonderful tone, if it's there to begin with. And I will speculate that the tone will sound sweeter, not to mention buzzier.

    In fact, technically speaking, one could suspend a variety of objects in there of different material even, and because you are adding mass to the bridge area you stand a chance of increasing the sustain, one of the so-called advantages of the Virzi. But we gain questionable sustain at the more likely sacrifice of other more important tonal positives. Now, if the Virzi is so good why aren't they requested and built in as standard practice?

    The argument for Virzis, if there are any, may remain to be a debatable issue for those few. The argument against them is more convincing. Ask anyone who has had them removed. This issue by the way is not a new one. It's been going on for some time, probably since they were first installed.

    If I may quote myself from an earlier response to this question, "But I would have loved to have over heard the convincing sales pitch that Mr. Virzi sold to Mr. Loar", " I don't know what they were thinking." Well, perhaps it was also this very lunatic proposition that contributed to leading Lloyd away from Gibson in the first place. Who knows?

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