Stradivarius ... again

[billkilpatrick]

Violins - with "Loar/The Loar," new vs.old mandolin significance:

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic....nes-round-two/

[Spruce]

I found the very first paragraph to be an eye-opener:

"This June, Sotheby’s will be auctioning off the Macdonald viola, created in 1719 by the legendary Italian violin-maker Antonio Stradivari. They’re asking for a minimum bid of $45 million, which would make this viola the most expensive instrument ever sold."

Yikes!

[JeffD]

[Jeff Hildreth]

The Strad viola continues the mythology of the Old Masters and affirms that fame and provenance determine cash value only.

The article on the blind test continues to prove what I learned a few decades ago when I was a violin hustler..l.. look at the instrument but not the label, play it and then make a determination as to your personal evaluation.. not based on fame or price but on quality of build and playability and tone.

My Hungarian made Ballestrieri intentional fake from the late 1600s rivals Italian old master builds. This was a confirmed and documented by three internationally known violin experts. The only part of the violin that was genuine was the original Ballestrieri label. I paid $850 for it in 1984. The Italians are not alone in their ability to create fine instruments.

My wife plays a Lanini from the late 1950s. American made.

[sblock]

The value of an instrument is set by the market, of course. Instruments that manage to become collectors' items wind up being valued for reasons that transcend their apparent worth merely as fine, playable instruments. As a consequence, they can easily develop prices that many (most?) players would think are absurd, and out of alignment with their value as purely musical instruments. In the mandolin world, a 1922-24 Lloyd Loar-signed Gibson F5 Master Model in truly excellent condition might fetch $250,000 on the market, whereas a great modern instrument built by one of the most renowned modern makers (say, Gilchrist, Nugget, Dudenbostel, or any other -- pick your favorite) might fetch $25,000. That's a factor of 10 in the price difference! Do the Loar instruments really sound "ten times better" -- whatever that means to you?! The price difference has mostly to do with rarity, collector value, provenance, and so on. You can blame it all on the collectors, not the players. And yes, some of those collectors happen to be players, too: wealthy players, that is -- and not always the better ones.

The price discrepancy caused by the phenomenon of collection is even greater in the violin world. The greatest price that a violin by a modern, living maker has sold for is $132,000 in 2013, for the "ex-Ricci" violin made by noted luthier (and MacArthur award winner) Joseph Curtin. The "ex-Kreutzer" Stradivarius of 1731 sold for $16M in 2014, from the estate of Huguette Clark, an eccentric heiress who was not known for any great skill on the violin. These prices differ by a whopping factor of 121! And no, not even the best Strad sounds "121 times better" than the best modern instruments, in the opinion of great violin soloists, that is. If anything, the modern instruments do a tad better in well-controlled studies! But rest assured that a Strad is nevertheless still worth 121 times more -- because that is exactly what the free market is telling us! Worth does not equate to quality.

At the very high end, the sound quality of a fine instrument becomes increasingly divorced from its market value. This is caused entirely by the phenomenon of collection. Collection, in turn, is driven by various mythologies/stories/beliefs/largely unsupported contentions that relate only partly to quality, but also relate to things like provenance, reputation, condition, rarity, age, and "collectability" (what the other collectors collectively think)!

For better or worse, large mythologies have very clearly been built up around the Golden Age violins from Cremona, like those made by Antonio Stradivari and Guaneri del Jesu, and also, in our mandolin world, around Lloyd Loar mandolins.

Yes, those Loar-signed F5 mandolins are truly great instruments. I am not claiming otherwise. But they are not the be-all and end-all of sound quality and playability in the modern mandolin world. And please take all the mythologies that the collectors will tell you with a grain of salt. A lot of it is mere rationalization, or a form of hero-worship.

[Spruce]

My wife plays a Lanini from the late 1950s. American made.

...nice fiddles...

[farmerjones]

A viola? Seriously? Prolly low hours.

[Jim Garber]

That article that Bill linked to was three years ago. The followup was that the viola did not sell. Rare ‘Macdonald’ Stradivarius viola fails to attract a buyer .

As for the rest of the article, my favorite comment was what my friend Sam Z said:

Paraphrasing Sam Zygmuntowicz , one of the world’s leading modern luthiers, if you know an instrument is from the Golden Period, you will assume any poor sounds are attributed to your playing, rather than quirks of the instrument, and you would apply all subtlety in trying to coax nuances of sound of the instrument. If is it new instrument, you may attribute any poor sound to the instrument, and be less willing to search for the subtleties.

I do recall my playing a Loar F-5 for about 1/2 an hour straight and trying all approaches to hear what it is that makes it super-special. I believe that I heard something but not so sure that I cannot get that something from a different instrument.

As far as Stradivari violins, my technique is no where near even an orchestral player's so my playing Mississippi Sawyer on that instrument would have little effect. OTOH I always thing that those elite instruments would do good to have a simple fiddle tune played on them. I did have a chance to do that when visiting the Metropolitan Museum's back rooms where I saw one of their strads on a bench. I almost asked if I could play it a bit but chickened out. Too bad.

[Tobin]

As far as Stradivari violins, my technique is no where near even an orchestral player's so my playing Mississippi Sawyer on that instrument would have little effect. OTOH I always thing that those elite instruments would do good to have a simple fiddle tune played on them. I did have a chance to do that when visiting the Metropolitan Museum's back rooms where I saw one of their strads on a bench. I almost asked if I could play it a bit but chickened out. Too bad.

Ever seen that video of Tommy Jarrell playing a Strad? He sounded just like he always does.

I'd be afraid to play OT fiddle tunes on an expensive antique Italian violin. Lightning would strike me, I'm sure.

If I ever get my hands on a Strad, the first thing I'm gonna do is ask if I can cross-tune it up to AEAE, just to see their reaction.

[Spruce]

As far as Stradivari violins, my technique is no where near even an orchestral player's so my playing Mississippi Sawyer on that instrument would have little effect. OTOH I always thing that those elite instruments would do good to have a simple fiddle tune played on them. I did have a chance to do that when visiting the Metropolitan Museum's back rooms where I saw one of their strads on a bench. I almost asked if I could play it a bit but chickened out. Too bad.

I remember backing up Sam Z and Ray Schryer--both on Strads--for a fiddle tune session once...
Sounded awesome!!

[billkilpatrick]

My point - labored tho' it be - is that in terms of the sound it makes, a new, well crafted mandolin from "solid select tonewoods," etc., etc. will in all probability sound pretty much the same in 100 years as it does today. The market value of that instrument, now and in the future, will have more to do with the name on the headstock than the sound it makes. A well made "The" Loar or "An" Eastman has less market value now - and probably will in the future - than "A" Gibson of comparable quality, in terms of material and construction.

[Jim Garber]

I remember backing up Sam Z and Ray Schryer--both on Strads--for a fiddle tune session once...
Sounded awesome!!

Sam is an excellent fiddler. He and I were in a few bands together over the years. He also plays mandolin and, of course, if one of the world's premier violin makers.

[Jim Garber]

Ever seen that video of Tommy Jarrell playing a Strad? He sounded just like he always does.

I'd be afraid to play OT fiddle tunes on an expensive antique Italian violin. Lightning would strike me, I'm sure.

If I ever get my hands on a Strad, the first thing I'm gonna do is ask if I can cross-tune it up to AEAE, just to see their reaction.

This video of Tommy? I hadn't seen that one. He definitely sound the same so I think his bridge was a lot flatter.

[Charlieshafer]

Tommy's main fiddle not only had a flat bridge, but also guitar-style tunes stuck on, and small tubes that he'd run the strings through to sit on the the bridge. This would make constant re-tuning for alternative tunings a snap, and not want to pull the bridge out of alignment.

[sunburst]

One of the things (there are many) that I learned from these violin studies, and to me this is remarkable:
300+ year old fiddles can be made to sound about as good as the best new ones.
Think about that for a little while. These things were made of wood, the same wood we have available to us today, they have been around under various storage conditions, they have been modified, repaired, rebuilt, played, handles, worn, and yet we can barely make a better sounding violin today if we can at all.
Now, if that sounds like a contrarian attitude, think about this. More people say it's remarkable that we can make new fiddles that sound as good as the old ones. Why? Because we've been conditioned to believe that Old Italians have a sound that is unequaled and cannot be attained with new wood worked by contemporary hands. Furthermore, we are so resistant to let go that notion that many of us call the studies into question, yet do so without supply any evidence to the contrary saying something like "trust your ears"... which leads to another thing that I learned from these studies; I can't trust my ears, and neither can you if you are a human being.

[Jim Garber]

I can't trust my ears, and neither can you if you are a human being.

Man, you humans are so deluded. Here on Neptune all the Strads and Loars are exactly the same, just like Bill and Tommy would have liked.

[billkilpatrick]

Man, you humans are so deluded. Here on Neptune all the Strads and Loars are exactly the same, just like Bill and Tommy would have liked.

Yep' ... If time travel were possible, I'd love to carry a couple of disguised "The" Loar mandolins into the future and monitor all the "Ooooo's" and "Ahhhh's" they'd elicit from the Gibson aficionados. (Dust would be essential ... )

[Charles E.]

I remember backing up Sam Z and Ray Schryer--both on Strads--for a fiddle tune session once...
Sounded awesome!!

Those boys can play!

[Jeff Hildreth]

"One of the things (there are many) that I learned from these violin studies, and to me this is remarkable:
300+ year old fiddles can be made to sound about as good as the best new ones.
Think about that for a little while. These things were made of wood, the same wood we have available to us today, they have been around under various storage conditions, they have been modified, repaired, rebuilt, played, handles, worn, and yet we can barely make a better sounding violin today if we can at all.
Now, if that sounds like a contrarian attitude, think about this. More people say it's remarkable that we can make new fiddles that sound as good as the old ones. Why? Because we've been conditioned to believe that Old Italians have a sound that is unequaled and cannot be attained with new wood worked by contemporary hands."


Plus 1000 !

Marketing hype has escalated the myth and value of instruments due to the miracle of radio, newsprint, TV and now the internet.
This applies not only to violins but to mandolins , guitars, et al.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I think that most of us on here have read enough about this subject to understand that 'age' isn't the primary ingredient in the making of a great sounding instrument. As John Hamlett indicates,'good' new ones can sound 'as good' as 'good' old ones - but even that's a matter of personal taste.
IMO,it's not simply the fact that some of these old instruments really are excellent,the 'scarcity' factor has to come into play. If there were dozens of them (or more),then they wouldn't command such high prices. 'One offs' of anything can be made even today & offered at ridiculously high prices - it doesn't make then superlative,simply rare,& rarity commands it's own prices,
Ivan

[LugubriousOrchid]

You know what would be cool?

Playing one of those instruments. I highly doubt they're all that special except for the fact they're fairly old...but I'd like to see for myself

[Mandoplumb]

I don't understand why we " can't trust our ears". The final authority on what I think sound good is MY ears. You can Bragg on an instrument all you want and think it's the cat's meow, but it's my ears that tell me if it's the best sounding instrument I've ever heard.

[Tobin]

I don't understand why we " can't trust our ears". The final authority on what I think sound good is MY ears. You can Bragg on an instrument all you want and think it's the cat's meow, but it's my ears that tell me if it's the best sounding instrument I've ever heard.

There's no doubt that each of us will have our favorite sound which can only be determined by our own ears. And yes, your ears should be the final authority on what sounds good to you. But the point is that when it comes to making general statements (or assigning values) on fine instruments, it isn't just your ears that are important. The market is determined by the collective ears of everyone in the market. And studies have shown, time after time, that our collective ears are not to be trusted when it comes to choosing the tone of Strads over modern instruments.

In other words, the signals our ears send to our brains may be influenced by what our brains already know about the instrument. If you pick up a Strad and play it, knowing it's a Strad, your brain is going to automatically hear it differently (with preconceived notions about the quality of the tone) than if you played it without knowing what it is. This is just the way the human mind works. We are not scientifically-calibrated devices. We are easily influenced, and it affects the way we experience sights and sounds.

[Jeff Mando]

Couple thoughts -- I'm not sure it's even about the sound, the Strad thing is about history of the instrument representing a pinnacle, the same reason we put Van Gogh's in art museums -- he ain't painting no more of them! And the same reason his paintings bring millions of $$, as well.

As far as "trust your ears" goes, sure if it sounds good to you and makes you feel good, that works for me and should be reason enough to enjoy music over other ways to spend our time. But, and its a big BUTT, empirically speaking many of us, if not most have less than perfect hearing. About a year ago there was a thread here about how many members wear hearing aids. I read in amazement the detail in which members were able to discuss details, model numbers, advantages, etc., of certain hearing devices, just like talking mandolin models and features. I ruffled some feathers when I mentioned how can we discuss (and interpret) intricacies of sitka, adirondack, x-bracing, the carve of a top, string choice, etc. -- when many of us can't HEAR or hear well. Except in a general way, of course, that is -- if it makes you feel good and you like the sound (whatever it is you are hearing ) then it is a good thing!

[Stephen Perry]

One thing for certain - relatively few violins will allow effective use as a soloist instrument carrying over an orchestra. The more I learn about violins, the less I know!

On preference testing, the biggest impediments I can think of are time and access. While love at first sight is often reported, I have time and time again found that if several good smaller instruments (as opposed to pianos, which I have only had one at a time) are around and I'm actively playing I eventually find myself using one. This might not be the one I think it's going to be. If a great player had several top instruments hanging around for a year and then selected the favorite we might learn a lot more!! At least about that player, if not the instruments.

https://loc.gov/item/ihas.200154808 Read and go to the lower right for the performance links. Put on your good headphones. Pick your favorite. I never can pick just one!