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Thread: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

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    working for the mando.... Bluetickhound's Avatar
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    Default Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum here but I could only find one short thread in the archives... Does anyone have any input on using one or the other for a mandolin that is not going to be a "bluegrass cannon"? It'll be more of a classical/jazz type of instrument. By way of full disclosure, there is an aesthetic consideration here also... I bought a set of brushed brass/rosewood button Rubners and they are glorious! If I could match the fretboard and bridge I think I'd like to but not at the cost of tone/volume...

    Also, if I do go w/ the RW bridge, are there considerations I need to make concerning top/back thickness or should I carve them the same as I would for an ebony bridge?
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Actually it's a fair discussion item. I don't even think it's been beat to death.

    I'm looking forward to it. The only rosewood bridges I've ever had on mandolins were on Harmony mandolins.
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    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I'm sure it'll change the tone a bit. Perhaps a bit softer?

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I'm looking forward to what folks say as well.

    There seems to be a lot of discussion of this in the guitar world, with competing claims as to whether or not it changes the tone, or makes for slower or faster playing. The only thing I am certain of is that what ever difference it makes, its likely to be a bigger difference with mandolins than guitars.
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    Mandolin Botherer Shelagh Moore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I usually make them out of ebony but have a couple of slabs of particularly nice dense AAA rosewood which I think will make nice bridges. I have a new bridge to make soon for a vintage instrument (which already has a rosewood bridge) so will try it out.

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    Registered User Ken's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I have made both rosewood and ebony bridges for my mandolins and think that a good piece of rosewood can work just fine. The disclaimer is that all my rosewood bridges have been one piece while the ebony bridges have been both one piece and traditional adjustable with thumb wheels. I have also never compared an ebony bridge and a rosewood bridge on the same instrument before. That would be a good experiment.

    Regarding changes to top and back thickness if you use rosewood, I can't see why that would be necessary.

    Using rosewood for the bridge, fret board and tuners sounds like it would make for a real pretty mandolin. I think that its Itzhak Perlman who has rosewood pegs and a rosewood tailpiece on his violin and they sure look good.
    Peace

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    Registered User David Houchens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I've made bridges from Madagascar, persimmon, Birdseye maple and ebony. I tried the rosewood, maple and ebony on the same mandolin. Honestly by the time I got the tuned back up each time the difference was so little I could hardly notice. the mandolin was in the white.

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    working for the mando.... Bluetickhound's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    From my pittance of experience, I would think a rosewood bridge wouldn't be as bright and "poppy" as ebony but would have a more mellow tone, which would be fine for my goals on this particular instrument.
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I've used rosewood for non adjustable bridges with bone saddles and seems it does make the mando louder then ebony adjustable bridges... but given the choice, most people want to be able to adjust...
    kterry

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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    There is quite a natural range of variation in the density, hardness (Janka hardness) and stiffness in rosewood. There is also quite a range of variation in the density, hardness, and stiffness in ebony. And there are many species, and subspecies, of the woods that we colloquially call "ebony" and "rosewood."

    Consider, for example, the Janka wood hardness table (click here). You'll see that Cochen Rosewood, East Indian rosewood, and Indian ebony all have identical hardness (2430), and that this hardness is only very slightly higher than the hardness of Honduras rosewood. Moreover, all these woods are harder than "black and white ebony", at 1780. Amazon rosewood is nearly (but not quite) as hard, on average, as Gaboon ebony. It is simply not correct to generalize that "ebony" is harder than "rosewood." What ebony? What rosewood?

    More or less the same thing holds for the properties of density, and of stiffness.

    Because the ranges of the relevant physical properties of rosewood and ebony are wide and partially overlap, it is simply not meaningful to state that rosewood or ebony might be categorically "better" for making a bridge. It depends on the properties of the actual piece of wood that's used! If hardness and density are considered desirable, then clearly there are some rosewood pieces that would make better bridges than some ebony pieces. And vice versa.

    The use of certain woods in instruments is often governed mainly by tradition, and also by availability. There are many hardwoods (purpleheart, tulipwood, blackwood, snakewood, for example) that are incredibly hard -- but rarer -- and might make superb bridges, if hardness and density were the controlling factors.

    I have heard some great rosewood bridges. I have heard some lousy ebony bridges. And the other way around. One must be careful about generalizations where natural products, with intrinsically high variability, are concerned.

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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I hadn't thought of a one piece or a bone saddle but that sounds really nice. Do you have a picture of that bridge you could post?
    Last edited by Bluetickhound; Apr-19-2017 at 11:34am. Reason: Autocorrect is NOT my friend...
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I can already see what's gonna happen here... I'll spend the next couple of weeks making bridges out of any scrap of hardwood I can get my grubby meathooks on....
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    The problem with Rosewood bridges that are commonly available is that they are not very well made. They are generally the cheapest available and are not the best quality. The hardware is generally poor and the wood is not particularly picked to be well suited as a bridge. Post holes are usually too large as well. If you can have one custom made for you, or can find one, with high quality adjusters and a dense piece of rosewood, I don't think you'd hear much, if any difference once it is properly fit.

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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	156241 here is a photo of some bridges that I made from rosewood with bone saddles.. the bone was from a pet store....
    kterry

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    '`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`' Jacob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    "I hadn't thought of a one piece or a bone saddle but that sounds really nice. Do you have a picture of that bridge you could post?"

    A one piece bone bridge?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I've made bridges from ebony, wenge, maple, kingwood, padauk, and African blackwood. More out-there materials I've used include carbon fiber, bone, and aluminum. I have not been able to discern or measure a significant difference in any of them (other than variations in mass, which were very large changes by the numbers, but resulted in very subtle changes in tone).

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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    That actually surprises me. Inwould figure there would be very marked differences in tone/volume...
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    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Perhaps most bridges are going to have equal stiffness, enough to withstand string pressure, and the only difference would be mass? So if you used a softer wood, you'd still have to make it just as stiff as an ebony bridge.

    Maybe mass is the real difference. And adding just a few grams to the bridge does make a difference in tone. As an experiment, add 10 grams of clay to one of your bridge feet to hear the change in tone.

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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I'd like to know what violin mutes are telling us about bridges.
    -Newtonamic

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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    Perhaps most bridges are going to have equal stiffness, enough to withstand string pressure, and the only difference would be mass? So if you used a softer wood, you'd still have to make it just as stiff as an ebony bridge.

    Maybe mass is the real difference. And adding just a few grams to the bridge does make a difference in tone. As an experiment, add 10 grams of clay to one of your bridge feet to hear the change in tone.
    Yes, absolutely, the mass is a dominant contributor. The second factor to consider is the damping. Violin bridge mutes, for example, add both mass and damping (they dissipate a fraction of the string energy). The third contributing factor, namely, the stiffness, does not really matter not so much -- once you're already into the hardwoods, that is (rosewood, ebony, and others), and not using a soft wood like boxwood or pine or whatever. And that is precisely why so many luthiers are reporting that they hear very little, if any, difference between bridges based on whether they are made from rosewood or ebony. Mass and damping matter more.

    A bridge that's poorly fit to the top of the mandolin is another matter. It can directly lead to the dissipation of energy (that is, to damping) in all the wrong directions, despite the bridge having the right mass and right stiffness. This is why a proper fit is so important for good sound, regardless of the hardwood used. And most luthiers and players would agree with this!

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Another problem with rosewood is that CITES regulations now cover any kind of rosewood. So the mandolin becomes less portable.
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    Perhaps most bridges are going to have equal stiffness, enough to withstand string pressure, and the only difference would be mass? So if you used a softer wood, you'd still have to make it just as stiff as an ebony bridge.

    Maybe mass is the real difference. And adding just a few grams to the bridge does make a difference in tone. As an experiment, add 10 grams of clay to one of your bridge feet to hear the change in tone.
    10 grams is a lot! You'd have to have a very chunky-looking bridge to add that much mass (which is approximately 50% heavier than a normal mandolin bridge).

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    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Yeah I think to really start to hear the effects of mass you need at least 10 extra grams, at least in my experiences. I've added tiny amounts of clay to the foot, until I heard a difference, then weighed the clay.

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    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I think it is fair to say that which ever wood you use will sound good. +1 for matching the rosewood. I have made non-adjustable bridges out of ebony, padauk, and also Bradford pear from my yard. When I build a mandolin, I usually put a rosewood bridge on it first and then maybe switch it to ebony. I have mandolins and guitars with rosewood and ebony bridges, including 2 D-18s made the same year - one with rosewood bridge and fretboard, the other with all ebony. I have installed new rosewood and ebony bridges on many mandolins, more often replacing rosewood with ebony at the customer's request. When I worked at the music store, I played some good instruments that had "sustainable" woods for bridges and fretboards, as well as other materials. I hear a difference. A clear difference, regardless of the physics arguments. I'm convinced, though, that most people hear little to no difference, so it shouldn't matter all that much which you use. I suggest making the rosewood bridge for looks and if it sounds good (which it probably will) keep it. If you think something is missing, replace it with an ebony bridge.
    Tom

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    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    "Rosewood " is pretty generic. It would be more helpful if we differentiated between the specific dalbergia choices- at least the common names like Brazilian, Honduran, Indian, Cocobolo, et cetera. I feel like I can tell a difference when switching different bridges and materials; subtle but still differences that play a small role in fine tuning that desired outcome. The real thing of note is that ten different bridges on ten different mandolins will have ten different responses, often not in a predictable manner....

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