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Thread: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I built an H1 mandola replica 3 years back and tried ebony and maple non-adjustable bridges copied from the orig. Gibson non-adj. design. I thought they both worked well, and the customer preferred the maple bridge, so that's what I sent the inst. out with.

  2. #27
    working for the mando.... Bluetickhound's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Quote Originally Posted by grandcanyonminstrel View Post
    "Rosewood " is pretty generic. It would be more helpful if we differentiated between the specific dalbergia choices- at least the common names like Brazilian, Honduran, Indian, Cocobolo, et cetera. I feel like I can tell a difference when switching different bridges and materials; subtle but still differences that play a small role in fine tuning that desired outcome. The real thing of note is that ten different bridges on ten different mandolins will have ten different responses, often not in a predictable manner....
    Fair points... The rosewood in question I believe to be Indian. Streaky, and more reddish in color. I'm going to give the rosewood a go and see how it turns out. I'll get the fretboard from StewMac and am trying to find an easily obtainable (harty har har...) endpin. May have to manufacture that myself out of leftover bridge stock to get the color match I want...
    "A creative man is driven by the the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others."

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  3. #28
    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I've been surprised at the difference in tone when I've changed just the saddle material used on a mandolin.

    It might be a quicker and easier experiment to just switch out rosewood vs ebony saddles on an existing bridge base, just to get an idea of the tone changes. Would sure decrease all the work of fitting the bridge to the top. Might not be what you'd want for the final esthetics though. And, of course, not as complete an experiment.
    Phil

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  4. #29

    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Interesting thread! Over the years I have made traditional style adjustable mandolin bridges out of a variety of woods. This thread caused me to dig deep into my tub of "Misc. Mandolin Bridge Parts" and I found a pretty good stash of rosewood base and saddle blanks. So, if anyone wants to try rosewood without having to make your own, here's your chance. The parts shown are in our "blanked" form, but I can turn them into completed bridges pretty quickly, if anyone wants one.

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  6. #30
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    PM me Steve...
    "A creative man is driven by the the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others."

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  7. #31
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    From a visual standpoint, rosewood bridges used on mandolins are sometimes stained black so they look like ebony. If you're wanting to order a bridge that will match your tuner buttons, you probably need to specify that you want natural unfinished rosewood for your bridge, otherwise it may look too dark to match the buttons. Another consideration though is matching your fingerboard; rosewood fingerboards are also often stained black -- if the fingerboard is rosewood and stained black, you may find that a stained black rosewood bridge or that an ebony bridge matches the rest of the instrument better.

    From a audio standpoint, it really depends on the mandolin; it's almost impossible to predict how one bridge of any kind of wood will sound on different mandolins, there are too many other variables involved... Comparisons are necessary on a single mandolin, and to be fair there should be multiple bridges of each type of wood in question -- and even then the process is very subjective. Rule of thumb: if you change any sound related component on an acoustic instrument, it will probably change how it sounds to you...

    That said, rosewood is usually slightly less dense than ebony, so in theory it probably will transmit sound vibrations more effectively to the top. But then also, the problem is that rosewood is usually slightly less dense than ebony, so in theory it may not last as long. Yin and Yang.

    From a technicality standpoint, keep in mind that there are new CITES rosewood documentation regulations for international shipping, travel and trade. These are pertaining to any amount of rosewood. If you have an after-market rosewood bridge on your mandolin and plan to travel internationally with it, you may want to research this topic before you travel.

    I've got a stock ebony bridge on my F9 and a stock rosewood bridge on my LF. Both are good sounding F-style mandolins and they are setup very similarly. Do they sound the same? Nope. Can I attribute specific sound characteristics to either bridge? Not in this lifetime.

    -- Don

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  8. #32
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    As you can read elsewhere on the MC (see this thread), NO, you do not need to worry about carrying documentation for a mandolin with a rosewood bridge (provided that it's not made of Brazilian rosewood -- and it won't be). Just travel and stop worrying. A lot of bad rumors are being spread about the new CITES regulations. They pertain mainly to heavier items (over 20 kg), like furniture, and instruments being sold -- not to personal instruments traveling with you.

    Also, if you read the earlier posts in this thread, you'll see that the density (mass) is only one of the controlling factors for tone. Damping and stiffness also contribute to the tone! And you'll also read that some types of rosewood are denser, on average, than some types ebony.

    Finally, because of these considerations, it is (unfortunately) not correct to assert that a less dense wood "in theory ... probably will transmit sound vibrations more effectively to the top." That is not true. And if it were true, then we'd all be going for the lightest possible bridge materials (least dense; lowest mass)! But we don't. Again, the mass is only one part of the equation. Don't forget stiffness and damping.

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  10. #33
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Hmm, maybe this is old news that has changed then???

    New CITES Regulations For All Rosewood Species


    CITES letter appendix II timber listings
    (Note: the non-commercial export clause "b" 10kg exemption may not refer to certain species of rosewood)
    Last edited by dhergert; Apr-21-2017 at 12:14pm.
    -- Don

    "Music: A minor auditory irritation occasionally characterized as pleasant."
    "It is a lot more fun to make music than it is to argue about it."


    2002 Gibson F-9
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  11. #34
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhergert View Post
    Hmm, maybe this is old news that has changed then???

    New CITES Regulations For All Rosewood Species
    Say, did you actually READ the article that you just cited?! (Or the thread that I linked above?) Let me quote here the very first two sentences of the article for you, so you can digest them:

    "A new regulation takes effect on January 2, 2017 that calls for documentation when shipping instruments internationally that contain any amount of any kind of rosewood or certain types of bubinga. It does not apply to instruments shipped within the borders of your country or instruments carried for personal use while traveling internationally [unless they contain more than 22 lbs. (10 kg) of the regulated woods]." (boldface mine.)

    You seem to be laboring under the impression that you need special documentation to travel abroad with your own mandolin if it has a rosewood bridge. Well, you don't! The new regulations will affect importers/exporters of instruments, or of wood, not traveling musicians.

  12. #35
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    I guess my concern is that people executing the April 13 2017 CITES rulings will not know what species of rosewood is on an instrument unless it is documented. Will these people be able to distinguish between Brazilian rosewood and other species of rosewood by looking at them without documentation? Somehow after experience with TSA here in the States, I doubt it. And that issue may determine how the 10kg exemption and commercial vs. non-commercial is ruled.

    If I were traveling internationally with a mandolin or any instrument that has any rosewood on it, I'd be prepared with documentation.
    -- Don

    "Music: A minor auditory irritation occasionally characterized as pleasant."
    "It is a lot more fun to make music than it is to argue about it."


    2002 Gibson F-9
    2016 MK LFSTB
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  13. #36
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhergert View Post
    I guess my concern is that people executing the April 13 2017 CITES rulings will not know what species of rosewood is on an instrument unless it is documented. Will these people be able to distinguish between Brazilian rosewood and other species of rosewood by looking at them without documentation? .
    Doesn't matter.

    From the article:
    While Brazilian Rosewood is currently under CITES protection (those laws will stay in place), this move places all the other nearly 300 species of rosewood under similar regulation.
    So what ever does or doesn't apply to Brazilian rosewood, applies not to all rosewood.

    If I were traveling internationally with a mandolin or any instrument that has any rosewood on it, I'd be prepared with documentation.
    I am thinking along those lines as well.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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  14. #37
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Doesn't matter.
    From the article:
    So what ever does or doesn't apply to Brazilian rosewood, applies not to all rosewood.
    I am thinking along those lines as well.
    Sigh. Evidently, some folks continue to misunderstand -- and therefore to misrepresent and over-react to -- the new regulations. Brazilian rosewood has long been handled differently, and it's covered under an entirely different set of provisions from all the other species of rosewood (that is, the types used for mandolin bridges) that have recently been added to CITES protection.

    Specifically, most types of rosewood are now covered under Appendix II, whereas Brazilian rosewood (only) is covered under Appendix I. In the current regulations, there exists an EXEMPTION for folks traveling with musical instruments containing the woods specified in Appendix II. (That exemption does not hold for Appendix I -- that is, for Brazilian rosewood only.)

    You don't need a CITES permit. You don't require special documentation. In fact, it can take several months and the outlay of significant amounts of money to get this documentation. It would be a complete waste of your time and money to apply for it, if you are simply planning of traveling abroad with your own mandolin. So don't bother!

    Only importers and exporters of instruments for sale need to worry about this. This has created quite a headache for them, in fact. But NOT for the musical traveler.

    Finally, there is no credible evidence that any U.S. customs agents have been hassling mandolin players traveling since January with their own instruments, based on the new changes to CITES regulations. And, in practice, that even holds for personal instruments containing Brazilian rosewood, as well -- even though this species has technically been banned for quite a while, and I certainly would not recommend traveling with it. Or with tortoise shell, for that matter. Anyway, the customs agents have much more important things to do these days.

    Please, everyone, take a deep breath and stop stoking the rumor mill.

  15. #38
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    For real. I'd be more worried about some brain dead baggage handler breaking an instrument than having said instrument confiscated...
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  16. #39

    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    After replacing a thin brazilian fingerboard on a kay upright bass with ebony, I recycle the board into mando fretboards, bridges, pickguards, trussrod covers, etc. IMHO, a pleasing match with blonde bodies, tortoise binding, and gold hardware. Seems to be a sonic difference when dropping them from the workbench to the concrete floor, like with plastic vs turtle picks, whether this would translate into audible change might be above woodbutcher paygrade.
    Once built a 1 piece Red Henry style bridge for an ovalhole from salvaged rock maple flooring from the Rainbow roller rink(c.1946) in Albuquerque, showed it to a local elderly mando player, he commented " I skated on that bridge!"

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  18. #40
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Sblock is correct, and I have been saying the same thing over and over on guitar forums. Don't panic, your personal mandolin, guitar, etc, is exempt so long as it contains less than 10kg of rosewood, excluding Brazilian Rosewood. You do not need any CITES documentation on your personal instrument if it contains Indian Rosewood which is by far the most common rosewood used on music instruments. The situation with Brazilian Rosewood has NOT changed. Customs officers since 1992 have always needed to identify Brazilian rosewood from other species. So feel free to make rosewood bridges or saddles from Indian Rosewood which unlike some other rosewood species is not endangered.

    Please don't spread incorrect information and cause other people to panic about CITES.
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  20. #41
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    All of that said and understood and respected, I still like Brazilian rosewood mandolins!

    j.
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  22. #42

    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Quote Originally Posted by sprucetop1 View Post
    I built an H1 mandola replica 3 years back and tried ebony and maple non-adjustable bridges copied from the orig. Gibson non-adj. design. I thought they both worked well, and the customer preferred the maple bridge, so that's what I sent the inst. out with.
    Anybody know how I could see that original Gibson non-adjustable design, its specs, or a replica?

    Super cool thread!

    I find it particularly interesting how little difference is noted from different bridge materials. Very interesting, indeed...

  23. #43
    working for the mando.... Bluetickhound's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Quote Originally Posted by grandcanyonminstrel View Post
    All of that said and understood and respected, I still like Brazilian rosewood mandolins!

    j.
    www.condino.com
    Seeing instruments like that one really fire me up! As much as I appreciate a standard Loar type F style or Snakehead, the stuff James, Marty Jacobson and others are doing are what really inspires and challenges me to stay at it and eventually try to come up with something different, yet still instantly recognizable as a mandolin... Right now I'm still trying to get the basics down (volume, power, tone, playability...) but the direction I want to travel is as clear as day...
    "A creative man is driven by the the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others."

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  24. #44
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Quote Originally Posted by LugubriousOrchid View Post
    Anybody know how I could see that original Gibson non-adjustable design, its specs, or a replica?

    Super cool thread!

    I find it particularly interesting how little difference is noted from different bridge materials. Very interesting, indeed...
    OK: Here is a picture of the non-adjustable Gibson bridge. But if I were you, and unless you were trying to preserve a vintage instrument as a collector's item, and not planning to play it very much, I would opt instead for an adjustable bridge -- this came out in the 1920's. An awful lot of earlier Gibson A's from the 1910s onwards have been retrofitted with Gibson-style adjustable bridges. You need to be able to adjust the action when the humidity changes seasonally (in most places in the U.S.), or even from month to month, and only an adjustable bridge offers that possibility! Few luthiers use non-adjustable bridges anymore, and they are mostly just a relic of worse times past.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If you want to keep a non-metallic, non-adjustable "look" to your bridge, but still maintain thoroughly modern-style adjustability, then I would recommend the Brekke original bridge, which looks like this:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by sblock; Apr-25-2017 at 4:34pm.

  25. #45

    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    Cool. Thank you sblock!

  26. #46
    working for the mando.... Bluetickhound's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rosewood bridge vs Ebony?

    My Cumberland Acoustics rosewood bridge is in the mail! I can't wait to get it and am looking forward to getting on with the current project that it will be going on. I have a new back set coming to replace the one I broke so things are about to get back on track. If anyone is interested in having a top shelf rosewood (or ebony, for that matter), give Steve a ring!
    "A creative man is driven by the the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others."

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