Archtop Guitar Question (NMC but JC)

[jaycat]

JC = Jam Content.

OK so I regularly attend a jam with 12-16 other players. As everyone knows, you can't hear a guitar solo for beans. Nonetheless we all get a solo and pluck away mightily, to little avail. Maybe if we're lucky the guy right beside us can hear.

Question - would an acoustic archtop guitar cut thru more effectively? Yes I know it depends on the guitar . . . but generally speaking?

There are a couple of nice-looking ones in the classifieds right now . . . just wondering.

[stevedenver]

JC = Jam Content.

OK so I regularly attend a jam with 12-16 other players. As everyone knows, you can't hear a guitar solo for beans. Nonetheless we all get a solo and pluck away mightily, to little avail. Maybe if we're lucky the guy right beside us can hear.

Question - would an acoustic archtop guitar cut thru more effectively? Yes I know it depends on the guitar . . . but generally speaking?

There are a couple of nice-looking ones in the classifieds right now . . . just wondering.

Have no idea. I dont think i could bring myself to bring my L5c to any jam, and, i am not a traditionalist. But, i fear it would be so odd as to be thought to be "making a statement". Once a guy brought a maccaferri. Odd , even by my standards.

Next time i jam with my buds at home, ill fetch the old girl out and see what they think.

Id expect its the pitch range more than flat or arch. At one jam a guy brings an o style single cone resonator, asian, and its not that much louder than a flat top.

Me thinks there a reason no one, other than d rawlins, has regularly used an archtop. Even sweet ones dont have the bass , chime, resonance and sustain of a flat top. Flat tops seem to fill out a bg ensemble voicing, despite little cut.

From the drivers seat, i dont hear more cut/volume with my L5, but we know this isnt always the most revealing listening post. Fwiw, i have never played any archtop that i thought of as acannon. Not so my dreds.

Back , pre amps, guitars in big band orchestra were part of the rhythm section. Bang em hard comping, using the right chord voicing, and they do cut.or, at least, can just about be heard.

I love an arch top voice, but, its not .....well....conventional. Pretty middy, even a super 400.

Btw, them jammers are 'sposed to back off when the guitar solos......ukes....not so much....lol.

[John Parrott]

Archtops are different beasts, and the variance in tone, volume, and feel from one to the next is great. I've played them for a long time in many different situations, and I'm hopelessly intrigued with them. They take some time to get a handle on.

Even if you had one that sparkled, I think you'd have a hard time cutting through playing swift single-string solos in such a large group.

Since your question seems to really about being heard when you solo in a large jam, you could try coming up with solos that are all downstrokes. You may lose some speed, but if you work it right, you might put more interest and authority into your break.

[Paul Kotapish]

I am a fan of the odd round-hole archtop that Martin made for a few years in the early '30s--the C-1 (mahogany) and the C-2 (rosewood). I'll follow that by saying I'm not a fan of the later Martin archtops with f-holes, which were trying to compete with Gibsons and just couldn't.

That particular combination of the round hole, arched top, and attached fingerboard produced a very focused tone that was--to my ears--halfway between a 000 or OM flatop and a conventional f-hole archtop.

I have found them to be great for flatpicking fiddle tunes and breaks in sessions, and very nice for backing up old-time and Irish tunes, blues, rags, etc. Very crisp mids and trebles that cut, but with a bit more sustain than you can get with a Gibson or Epiphone or other f-hole archtops.

As a point of interest to CBOM enthusiasts, it was a C-1 that was part of the inspiration for Stefan Sobell's octave mandolin and cittern designs. He got his from Riggy Rackin in a swap for a concertina, and he appreciated that same balance between the focus and the sustain.

I've had several over the years, and I think they are underappreciated because they don't quite fit in with any of the conventional styles folks are accustomed to. As a result, a lot of them have been converted to flattops. Those are nice, too, but I hate to see the potential of the original ignored. The fact that they are not in any particular demand means that if you can find one, they are a small fraction of the cost of other Martins of similar vintage.

[Ryk Loske]

What John Parrott said. Like flat tops they are variable but more often than not they pump out more volume. I love them and take my old Gibson Super 300 everywhere. At 18" it will cover most of the territory held by a Dred.

The big key is chord voicings. Three and four note chords are they way to go. Charlton Johnson's Swing & Big Band Guitar and the book and DVD put out by Ranger Doug from Riders in the Sky are great ways to get started.

You can hear the style used on Shetland fiddle tunes .... it was introduced there by Peerie Willie Johnson who played with Aly Bain.

Screw what others think. Once they experience the music all's well unless they're part of some music police group ... and who wants to play with them anyway?

Worth the effort!

Ryk

[Charles E.]

If you you want to cut through that crowd get a National guitar.

[CarlM]

I know she is technically not bluegrass but just the same.

[Mandobart]

Did someone mention Sel-Mac? I have an Altamira M-20D that is the mythical banjo-killer. It is very loud. I've brought it to a few BG jams with friends. The whisper quiet Martin box players grudingly admit "yeah, its loud, but its the wrong kind of loud." I just laugh at them.

[Mandoplumb]

It has been my experience thatna good smaller body flat top will cut thru better than a dred, it has a "higher" sound with less bass and overtones that seems to ride above all that rhythm. Also the players should lighten up when a guitar is taking the break so everyone can hear it JMHO

[John Soper]

Our cardinal rule in Jams is that if you can't hear the solo, or understand the vocals, you are playing too loud.

[Mandobart]

Our cardinal rule in Jams is that if you can't hear the solo, or understand the vocals, you are playing too loud.

It is the same for us. We usually have a jam group of 5 -10 people that get together weekly. So guitar solos are just that - they pretty much play alone or else no one can hear them. We "air pick" to keep time. Then when its passed to a banjo, fiddle, mando or dobro everyone jumps back in.

[stevedenver]

I tried it a few weeks back, A/Bd with my Martin Dred. and Gibson L5P-full acoustic.

Follow up, I was told my L5 is no louder, but does have an upper mid cut. From the drivers seat, more mando like percussiveness for rhythm, conspicuously missing bass tone and punch. The overall consensus was the L5 sound was different, a bit "quieter" than my Martin Authentic and, sounded unusual, almost like a resonator tone. so yes, more cut in the upper mids. not so much the trebles, ie up the neck single string solos.

[Charlie Bernstein]

I have a couple of dreads and resos I take to acoustic jams. They all work as long as I hit the strings hard.

Ever notice how you don't know that a Harley hawg is passing you until RWAGHHHHHH!!!! it's right next to you? Likewise, an acoustic guitar broadcasts in one direction: away from you. You might not think it's loud, but that doesn't mean the people it's aimed at don't.

So no, I doubt an archtop will help. But remember that all acoustics are not created equal. Good rosewood and mahogany Martin, Gibson, and Guild flattops will (in general project better than other common makes. (I know - there are plenty of loud Yamahas, Epiphones, Fenders, Takamines, Taylors, and Seagulls. The point: If you're going to a loud jam, take a cannon.)

And I haven't found that it pays to find a guitar that emphasizes lows, mids, or highs. At a jam, comfort, volume, and getting the song right matter a lot more than tone. What cuts through a bunch of Taylors isn't what cuts through a bunch of Gibsons. What cuts through mandos and banjos isn't what cuts through basses and baritones.

A good flattop has plenty of highs, mids, and lows at your fingertips. It should work well with Taylors AND Gibsons AND mandos AND baritones.

Last, when I say "comfort," I mean you can be playing a dread, a jumbo, an OM, or a parlor. You can be playing steel or nylon. You can be using a flat pick, finger picks, or bare fingers. As you can see from the above responses, different players have found very different ways to be heard.

They've done the work of finding what's right for them. Now your job is to fiind what works for you. Adjust your playing to project into the jam environment. That's the challenge, and that's the fun.

[Billy Packard]

I am in full agreement that the ensemble should listen and adjust to whomever has the solo. If that's not happening then music is not happening just a roomful of people pounding on guitars by themselves.

On the bright side, I am the proud owner of a Martin OM42 Quilted Maple 2. This guitar is blessed with the distinctive Martin sound we all know and love PLUS it has a very strong, shiny treble tone that sits very nicely between the upright base and the mandolin, violin, etc. and makes for a very good lead guitar because of this. The base that the mahogany and rosewood have is somewhat diminished on this guitar but is still quite present. I've found that while playing a Dreadnaught, or in my case a Martin M38 which is rosewood, the lower end gets washed out by the base for the most part anyway.

Check out maple guitars!

Billy

billypackardmandolin

[stevedenver]

Charlie, with respect, the difference is, i actually did the comparison, with listener players. No speculation. There is more mid cut, like a mando.

Remember these archtops were designed to be part of the rhythm section in an orchestra.

Billy , nice guitar. Maple does have sparkle indeed. As does that torched headstock!