What sells?

[Sitka]

Hello!

I am working on an idea for a business. I want to focus on building mandolins and guitars, acoustic and electric in the $700 - $1,000 range. What are you looking for in that price range? If you had two equally priced mandolins in front of you, what would make you choose one over the other?

Thanks for the help!

Micah

[Hudmister]

Free strap, hard shell case, blue chip pick and a free set up. Actually a radius fret board with binding on the sides, wider stainless frets, solid carved top with f holes, solid sides and back (maple with a lot of flame) and a lacquer finish with a classic burst. Of course it would need great tone, decent volume and a healthy bark.

[allenhopkins]

What we're all looking for is all-solid-wood construction, hand-carved top and back, thin/hand-applied finish, quality bridge, tuners and tailpiece, non-plastic nut and bridge saddle, spruce top, figured maple back and sides, mahogany neck, ebony fingerboard, and -- in many cases -- hand-carved scroll and points (F-model).

Can you deliver that for $700-$1000? It'll take ingenuity, industry, a fair amount of good luck, and perhaps willingness to live on ramen noodles for several years. Some Asian-made instruments provide all these desired features, even with the cost of shipping across the Pacific, but they have the advantage of inexpensive labor, established distribution networks, and familiar names (Eastman, Kentucky, Loar et. al.).

My good Rochester friend Dave Stutzman entered into a partnership to make American Acoustech guitars here, maybe 15-20 years ago. They were all solid wood, used "off" body woods like cherry and walnut for back and sides, and bought "seconds" bridges and fingerboards from C F Martin. Tom Lockwood, Dave's partner, had worked for Guild for years, and they purchased CNC equipment to do the basic woodworking. American Acoustech lasted perhaps 7-10 years, producing a few thousand guitars (great guitars for the price, by the way; I bought each of my kids one). What doomed the company was lack of distribution and dealerships; most stores were content to sell Asian import instruments of comparable quality and price, and backed by national advertising and large-scale distributors.

What you're planning sounds great -- but make sure your business model's sound. As one of my Murphy'a Law calendars warned me, "Just because you can do something well, doesn't mean you can do it for a living."

[Steve Sorensen]

I hate to rain on your parade but your first problem is the math of the plan.

Really good quality components and wood for mandolins and guitars already get you to the $700 to $1000 range. Labor at $15-$20 per hour gets you another $700 to $1000 once you are a fast and efficient builder of even the simplest guitar or A-style mandolin . . .

And, if you are going to start with junky quality components or not put in the time to do great work, you are already behind the thousands of instruments coming in from China and Mexico every day.

As far as I can figure, the only way to create a winning business model building in the United States is to exceed expectations. You have to build and support at a level that is better than the imported instruments (as well as the millions of affordable vintage instruments on EBay AND the hobby builders not looking to make a living) in quality, tone, playability, customer service, and attention to details.

All those things take time and money . . .

I'm not saying it's not a challenge worth the effort. But it is a challenge that is far tougher than it appears to be at first glance. Aim high.

Steve

[sblock]

Well, you might be able to build guitars (and especially electric ones) in the price range of $700-$1000, but you will be extremely hard-pressed to build any mandolins in that range that can hope to compete against the available offerings from the Far East by Kentucky, Eastman, The Loar, and others. They have the economies of scale, greatly reduced labor costs, well-established production lines, well-established lines of sale (dealerships, etc.), and well-established marketing, all working in their favor.

A decent mandolin is much more labor-intensive than a guitar. And you will not be able to compete in labor costs if you build in the U.S. You won't even come close (sorry).

An intermediate path was forged by Northfield, which splits production between China and the U.S., and tries -- rather successfully, I'd argue -- to get the best of both worlds. First, and most important, in their business model, they don't try to compete at the low end ($700-$1000) -- they make a product that aims instead for something closer to the top end (or the "bottom of the top end," if you want to think about it that way), but at a very attractive price point. Their natural competitors are more like Weber, Collings, Breedlove, and even Gibson -- not Kentucky, Eastman, or The Loar. And they have been quite successful, in part because they have offered more bang-for-the-buck than most of their rivals. They have also done a great job of marketing, and have offered customizations and features (like varnish finishes, different tone bars) that set them apart from some of their rivals. But with their success, their prices have soared on many models, and their better models are now encroaching on the price points for some of the mandolins hand-made by individual luthiers (Pava, Mowry, Pomeroy, Silverangel, Elkhorn, and many others come to mind). It remains to be seen if the rising Northfield prices have "topped out" or not.

Yeah, it's a tough business.

[Br1ck]

Everyone I know who has built instruments for sale started taking in repair work to make ends meet. Gradually, repair work became their business. Pure economics.

Go to the Pono website. Owner George Kitakis had a long career building custom guitar and ukuleles, but wanted to put high quality instruments into the hands of people without $4000 budgets.

He formed Pono by buying an existing small shop in Indonesia. His guitars start around $700 and go up to around $1200. He sells direct. Few people know about Pono. Build qualityy is outstanding. There is no plastic anywhere on his guitars. His competition is Eastman in the guitar realm. Hard sledding for sure.

Look at Halcyon. Strong dollar makes these a great value. Last time I looked they were around $1200CAD. Stripped of any ornamentation and with a satin finish, they are fine guitars with a stellar reputation. Owner had a very long history working for Larrevee.

So you will be fighting for the dollars of the casuall player, in a market saturated with good product and established marketing and distribution. If Pono had a dealer network, they would sell in the $1800 range. I see it akin to 10 bands fighting for the same gig.

If instruments are your passion, I'd build up a repair reputation and build instruments as you can.

[NursingDaBlues]

Hello!

I am working on an idea for a business. I want to focus on building mandolins and guitars, acoustic and electric in the $700 - $1,000 range. What are you looking for in that price range? If you had two equally priced mandolins in front of you, what would make you choose one over the other?

Thanks for the help!

Micah

That’s a tough question.

My preferences will likely be totally different than what another potential buyer would want.

Personally, I first look for tone and playability; two features that are extremely difficult for players to agree upon. Admittedly, aesthetic appeal also plays a major role; not talking ornate but well-designed and professionally/cleanly finished. And, equally as important, the instrument has to serve a specific purpose or role; i.e. it has a specific voice that I’ve been looking for. And, you know, I really like owning a quality American-made instrument.

However, reading comments in other threads the past few weeks, I’ve seen a perceived demand for:

- Durability: an instrument that can go from gigging to the campsite to the beach with minimal care.
- Simplicity: minimal maintenance; easily repaired with easily found replacement items; uncomplicated set-up.
- Versatility: play it plugged or unplugged; options for varying effects

Are features of these types really what the instrument buying public wants? Even though there has been discussion circling around these points, I really don’t know. But I think some of the carbon fiber instrument makers are trying to chip away at the market that I’ve described. And I have to concede that some do sound pretty good.

[MikeEdgerton]

Now who could possibly sell a flat top and back mandolin made in Missouri? I do have one request though. Name it North Missouri mandolin and guitar company so we can call it NoMo.

[Tobin]

I don't want to sound overly pessimistic, but entering the mandolin small-shop builder's market right now would be incredibly tough, especially when trying to sell at the price point of imported Asian stuff. I don't think it can be done profitably enough to make a living at. The market is already saturated.

[Charlie Bernstein]

I agree with Hudmister's radiused fretboard idea. A lot of guitarists are getting mandos these days, and Breedlove is accommodating them with radiused and WIDER fretboards. It seems to be a growing niche.

For the price range you're talking about, Big Muddy and Redline have the right idea: solid wood flattops, like the old Flatirons. There's definitely room for more flattop makers, especially if you do the guitarist-friendly fretboard with the radius and extra width.

[Folkmusician.com]

Micah,

About once a year, I take another serious look at building. Building in itself is difficult to do profitably, without adding in all the other expenses that come along with a business.

If I were to pursue it, my entire business expenses aside from materials are basically covered free of charge and I still don't think I could make anymore than a slightly profitable hobby out of it. It is a real difficult market. That goes for pretty much anything that people enjoy doing, that doesn't require a massive investment. If someone would happily do it for free, it is extremely difficult to make a viable business out of it. Not that it can't be done....

[Sitka]

Now who could possibly sell a flat top and back mandolin made in Missouri? I do have one request though. Name it North Missouri mandolin and guitar company so we can call it NoMo.

I like it. I'll add it to the name list. It's like a thru hiker's trail name.

I've heard a guy in Rocheport builds Big Muddy. I think he use to be called Mid Missouri Mandolins (MidMo).

[Jeff Mando]

Not to be mean, but you won't make any money unless it is a very basic mandolin, that is, not carved, not bound, very plain....

Once in a while on eBay I will see someone making and selling a decent F5 copy in the $600 price range, but they aren't doing it for the money, just for something to do for a retired person or a father/son team and I would guess they are actually losing money if you figured an hourly rate/cost of wood into the picture.

I went in a guy's store in Illinois, which was full of handmade dreads he had made, all of them were $800 and not selling. He must have had 40 or 50 of them. IMHO, they were good, not great for the money. He just liked making guitars, I guess? Nothing wrong with that UNLESS you need to make a living out of it! Problem is, there are just too many choices in the $700-1000 range --- not to mention all the great used guitars in that price range. Heck, I've got two Harmony Sovereigns, all solid wood, one is ladder braced, one is x-braced -- both put most vintage Martins to shame and I've got almost nothing in them.

[MikeEdgerton]

I like it. I'll add it to the name list. It's like a thru hiker's trail name.

I've heard a guy in Rocheport builds Big Muddy. I think he use to be called Mid Missouri Mandolins (MidMo).

You heard right. That's what I was eluding to. Mike Dulak has been building quality mandolins for years.

http://www.bigmuddymandolin.com/

[fscotte]

My advice, look elsewhere. There's no money making potential in the $700 to $1000 range, unless you need cash for a Bic Mac.

[colorado_al]

I'd do some research into the Big Muddy/Mid Missouri mandolins of Mike Dulak. He's been building flat top mandolins for a long time and has a good niche. He also may be getting closer to retirement. Might be a business opportunity for both of you to take over for him. He'd be great to apprentice with, if you can convince him, anyhow. The other instruments that come to mind are built by Howard Morris in OR. If you search the classifieds on this site, you'll see his mandolins. I'm not sure how he builds such nice mandolins for sale at $1000 or less, but he does. Likely more a labor of love than a way to make money, however.
Oh, Also check out the Redline Traveler by Steve Smith at Cumberland Acoustic. Another flat top Army/Navy type for $1000. They are going to be really hard to match.

If you are going the carved top and back route, you'll likely need to stick to A model mandolins with rosewood fretboard & bridge to come in under that price. If you have access to a CNC rig that could cut your build time down significantly, and then do finish sanding by hand. I agree that radiused fretboard and EVO/Banjo frets are widely enjoyed. Most of all however, is tonal quality and ease of play.

I would see if you can find a mandolin building class in your area, or travel to one at a festival, to see what you're getting into.

And also make sure to pickup Siminoff's Ultimate Bluegrass Mandolin Construction Manual
https://smile.amazon.com/Ultimate-Bl.../dp/0634062859

Best,
Al

[CWRoyds]

You might be able to pull it off by making very simple solid body electrics.
Other than that, that is a tough road to hoe.

[Russ Donahue]

As you are doing your research, you might also look through one of the recent threads here on the Cafe. Consider it market research: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...24-Boomer-Bust

Its good to have passion, and a dream that matches the passion. The question is how they stack up against reality. You're starting your homework in a good spot. If you are likely to have any success, a core market will be the people who frequent this site and maybe the UMGF site as well.

Keep asking questions, and keep us up to date as the journey unfolds.

[Jeff Mando]

I couldn't help but think about a possible parallel between the 70's hi-fi speaker craze and our current state of mandolin production. Back then, you had small USA companies (Advent, ESS, AR, Phase Linear, etc.) competing quite well against the big import companies (Pioneer, Sony, Sansui, etc.) Of course, you are talking about building a box and sticking components into it, not carving tops, etc.....sorry speaker guys! And, this was back when a dollar was still a dollar. Also, much of this trade was fueled by ads in music and audio magazines -- as I remember the import companies had the full page color ads and the independent builders ran smaller black and white ads -- ultimately most of the bigger USA independents got bought out by Pioneer, etc. And, a much bigger market -- more people can play a record than can play a mandolin!

I personally wouldn't even consider going into production today unless I was capable of making a boutique quality instrument that would sell in the $10K range AND I already had several famous mandolin players endorsing them on stage. Then, you might actually make some money for a few years, UNTIL the next big thing came around. I think to get there would take 20+ years of hard work and quite a bit of luck, IMHO. Certainly no walk in the park....

Anyway, some pre-coffee food for thought......

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . As one of my Murphy'a Law calendars warned me, "Just because you can do something well, doesn't mean you can do it for a living."

Yep. I managed to retire last year without ever having acquired a marketable skill!

[soliver]

With all due respect to the respondents to this thread, the question which the OP posed was:

What are you looking for in that price range? If you had two equally priced mandolins in front of you, what would make you choose one over the other?

It was not: "What do you think of my small business plan?... Because A. He didn't share a business plan and B. He didn't ask what we thought about the idea of making instruments in the $700-$1000 range. So before one rains pessimism down on something, one might answer the question posed... What do you want for $700-$1000? Why would you choose #1 over #2? ... and then see where the OP ends up. I'm not saying he wouldn't appreciate advice, but that's not what he asked for. But not having the slightest idea of his plans, it seems premature to tell him he wouldn't be successful. I am 100,000% meaning no disrespect to any of you who already responded, I just think we rather, ought to answer the question posed.

Here's where I'm at: I live in this price range, because it's what I'm able to afford. While some would set aside and save for a long time they might come up with enough for a Northfield, Silver Angel or Collings (or even bigger name), I could save for an equivalent time frame and be in the range asked about by the OP. So I say to myself, "man I love that pretty wood on that really beautiful instrument, and all the bells and whistles, but it's way outside of my ability to afford... so what do I want?"

My answer is this: I would want a good tone and volume, and a radiused fretboard.... of course I don't want it to look like a piece of junk, but it doesn't have that highly figured wood or the like of a multi-thousand dollar instrument. And maybe a hard shelled case, but that's not a deal breaker. My 2 main requirements are how it sounds (first) and a radiused fretboard (second).

Hope that helps.

[pheffernan]

I am working on an idea for a business. I want to focus on building mandolins and guitars, acoustic and electric in the $700 - $1,000 range. What are you looking for in that price range? If you had two equally priced mandolins in front of you, what would make you choose one over the other?

In that price range, I would be looking for a flattop or electric mandolin made with solid woods and functional hardware. If I had two equally priced mandolins in front of me, my choice would be informed by playability first and tone second. A real selling point would be a high quality setup, all too infrequent among mandolins in this price range. Of course, such a setup, like a case, might be a deferred cost that gets passed along to the consumer to try to make the numbers work.

[colorado_al]

You're also going to be going up against JBovier, which is made in China and finished in USA, and professionally setup by Jeff Cowherd. If you look at those mandolins, you will see what is in demand at that price point. All carved spruce & maple construction, Radiused ebony fretboard & bridge, solid cast tailpiece, high quality tuning machines, large wire frets, bone nut, case.
http://mandolins.ecrater.com/p/16368...er-w-black-top
This is what most will be looking for in a good mandolin at that price range, and JBovier nails it. Here is the description from the A5 page:

• Solid Carved Spruce Top
• Solid Carved Highly Flamed Maple Back
• Solid Highly Flamed Maple Sides
• Solid Highly Flamed Maple Neck
• Vintage Profile Tone-Bar Bracing
• Radiused Ebony Fretboard
• Radiused Ebony Bridge
• Ebony Truss-Rod Cover
• Ebony End Pin
• Dot Fretboard Inlays
• Unique Headstock Decor
• 3-ply Binding
• Genuine Bone Nut
• Nut Width = 28.5 mm (+/-)
• Nickel Grover "309" Tuners
• Black or MOP Tuner Buttons
• .080″ Frets
• Nickel Hardware
• Dual-Action Truss-Rod
• Dovetail Neck Joint
• Solid Tailpiece
• D’Addario “J-74″ strings
• Nitrocellulose Lacquer = Gloss Only
• JBovier Custom Case

You can get most of these with the Kentucky KM505 which sells for $600. And any number of Eastman mandolins up to $1000 for the F5 MD-515.

[Jeff Mando]

I should add there was a time when a US buyer given the choice between a made in the USA instrument and an import for the same price would ALWAYS choose the USA instrument. BUT, those times have changed.

More than likely the import will give you more features for the same money, as colorado_al has stated.

I'm a holdout and still drive Cadillacs and Ford trucks. My wife is on her third Honda. And, I've got to admit, Honda makes a nice driving reliable car!

I guess that's why I like used and vintage instruments, I don't have to play the "where was it made?" game. Not to mention old wood, etc. But probably a discussion for another thread......

[Willie Poole]

Good looks if you want to sell it to a woman, good tone if you want to sell to a man...I have seen some great sounding mandolins that didn`t look all that great but looks can be changed so give me a good tone and I`ll buy it...I don`t see the real need for a radiused fret board, all that I own are flat boards...

Willie