Oxidised wood

[s4mb4]

Hello forum people. I have been lurking awhile now, trying to gather information about the best to address a crack in my guitar headstock. I have a Jackson Fusion electric guitar which at some point in the past I decided I wanted to put heavy (.12 gauge) strings on. I was partway through setting this up and making the necessary adjustments when I got distracted by life. The guitar went into it's case and was forgotten a while. This was possibly as far back as 2008.

At some point between then and when I rechecked some years later, the increased tension on the bottom-E machine head split the headstock neatly along the grain from the machine head to the nut. It's now a bit floppy and dangling by a thread, like a loose tooth.

I now come to sort this out. I've been reading around and have decided to try using HHG (with a fair number of trial runs cos I've never used it before).

Given that the wood in the crack (maple, btw) has been exposed to air for a number of years, it's going to be pretty oxidised. Is there anything I can do about this? Or anything I should bear in mind upon attempting to glue it back together?

Sorry in advance for my lengthy post!

[stevedenver]

Hello forum people. I have been lurking awhile now, trying to gather information about the best to address a crack in my guitar headstock. I have a Jackson Fusion electric guitar which at some point in the past I decided I wanted to put heavy (.12 gauge) strings on. I was partway through setting this up and making the necessary adjustments when I got distracted by life. The guitar went into it's case and was forgotten a while. This was possibly as far back as 2008.

At some point between then and when I rechecked some years later, the increased tension on the bottom-E machine head split the headstock neatly along the grain from the machine head to the nut. It's now a bit floppy and dangling by a thread, like a loose tooth.

I now come to sort this out. I've been reading around and have decided to try using HHG (with a fair number of trial runs cos I've never used it before).

Given that the wood in the crack (maple, btw) has been exposed to air for a number of years, it's going to be pretty oxidised. Is there anything I can do about this? Or anything I should bear in mind upon attempting to glue it back together?

Sorry in advance for my lengthy post!

Oxidation shouldnt make difference. Unless it was exposed like a fence post outside for years.

Why hot hide? Seems like needless fuss, and a modern wood glue might be better for fitting and time needed.

Titebond, and a clamp, then, recheck the tuner hole size.

Only thing i can think of is that the wood swelled, humidity? And the tuner acted like a wedge. Gauge likely had no effect, just coincidental to the wood changing.

Important thing is a good tight face to face fit, lots of glue in the crack, clamp firmly and sponge off the spillage. Let it thoroughly dry. Reeming may be in order. And, if the faces are small and smooth, ie inadequate glue area, you may consider a pin or dowel cross bit to help

[John Kelly]

Given that HHG is the norm for fiddle repairs and is used to fix cracks in fiddles which are well over 100 years old, your timescale of under 10 years is not really a big factor here. More importantly the crack should be clean and free from any debris which might have got in, but if the guitar's been in its case then this is not too big a problem either, I'd imagine.
If you can open the crack slightly to ensure that the glue gets well in, and warm up the headstock before you apply the glue, you should have no problem. Working out a suitable clamping method on the single-sided headstock might take a bit of work, but you can make up suitable cauls to help with the clamping. As you say, use dry runs first to get everything worked out and sort out any problems with the alignment and clamping.

[sunburst]

Hide glue, AR glue, any good quality wood glue will work fine.
The 'old' surfaces will not be ideal gluing surfaces, but that's the way it is in the repair business. Sometimes things have to be glued when they've been broken for a while. The surfaces could be cleaned with distilled water, but that brings it's own problems, like wood swelling and the fit of the pieces changing, so I would not recommend cleaning the surfaces. Just make sure the fit is good, use a good glue, and (this is important) do several dry runs to be sure your clamping system is fool proof. That is especially important if you decide to use hot hide glue because you don't have time to rethink your clamping system when things are slippery with glue and won't stay put like they did when they were dry.

[s4mb4]

Thanks all. I've no intention of starting another thread on glue (I've been reading them for a while now), but am I right in thinking that HHG is better where I (or a luthier) might actually want to take the joint apart again? So given I don't want to do that, Titebond is fine?

I suppose I like the idea that the HHG will shrink and that maybe it will be hard to see the join. Restoring the lacquer is beyond me.

[Matt Harris]

S4mb4, if you don't mind my asking, is there any particular reason you want to use HHG?

It obviously has an important place in instrument building, but given that you are not otherwise doing luthiery work (could be a bad assumption, just going off the tone of your post), and given that you are fixing a broken headstock in an instrument which almost certainly has no other hide glue joints, and that it's highly unlikely you'd ever want to separate the joint... I don't know, just seems like a bit of over complication and adds additional learning curve to a process where you're not really seeing any added benefit.

Whatever glue you choose will do the trick. If it were me, in this particular instance, I believe I'd just stick with something simple, an alphatic resin glue, like Titebond or similar.

Just my opinion. Good luck with the repair!

**Heh, looks like I was writing my post as you were replying, and didn't see your last post. Anyway, I think I addressed your post with my response, regardless.

[bernabe]

The only benefit to using hide glue is its slight advantage in strength if its exposed to heat and easier re-glue if it fails in the future as it is an area that will be under stress. Its a small area to glue up and the gluing procedure is as easy [or difficult] as AR glue if you warm the parts being glued. The only down side is buying HHG granules and mixing to correct temperature for a small batch when you may never use it again.

[sunburst]

As I see it, HHG might make a less visible joint, and that would be the only advantage in this case. I suspect the repair will be visible (without finish touch up) anyway, and a good, well fit, well clamped AR joint can be darned near as invisible as a HHG joint under finish touch up anyway...
As was mentioned, there is probably no other HHG in the guitar anywhere... I'd probably just squeeze some glue out of a bottle for this one.
(Heat will easily reverse an AR glue joint, but I don't think that is an important consideration because, assuming a good job on the repair, it is unlikely that there will ever be a reason to 'un-glue' it.)

[Wes Brandt]

There is one more reason that hot hide glue could be better for this repair ...that it doesn't make the joint nearly so slippery, which is more and more of a problem when you're clamping weird shapes where the clamps aren't at 90 degrees...

[bernabe]

There is one more reason that hot hide glue could be better for this repair ...that it doesn't make the joint nearly so slippery, which is more and more of a problem when you're clamping weird shapes where the clamps aren't at 90 degrees...

...and if the OP hasn't had enough experience "wet" clamping this type repair, and things are a hair off when the clamps come off, that white glue becomes unwanted yellow gunk in a bad joint. If it doesn't go right the first time with AR, the second will have a new set of challenges. Not a cheap guitar either.

[s4mb4]

Hmm... all food for thought. I'm not experienced at this kind of repair at all. Maybe HHG sounds a little easier to work with. I mean I already have it - it arrived from amazon yesterday...

[Wes Brandt]

If you post a photo you will probably get some good suggestions for clamping araingments.… peg head repairs can be some of the hardest repairs depending on whats going on, if there are areas where the the wood gets very thin at the end of the crack, those can be really hard to get back together cleanly …here is a complicated one I did recently, these clamps rubber pads help immensely... though more often than not, I use heavy rubber strips to do the clamping.

If it's a valuable instrument you might consider a professional.


Attachment 155750

[Dave Sheets]

I'm a relatively new user of hot hide glue, and I just love it compared to other wood glues. The removable aspect of it is a huge advantage. Try practicing with it using some scrapwood first, to get the feel of it. Well worth the effort.

[Stephen Perry]

I have not heard anyone suggest hide glue is "easier" before! Lots of trial runs. On old cracks of suspect nature I've sometimes done a super detailed job gluing them at the level of the surface and then chalk fit a patch in behind. Only worthwhile where there's a good deal of load and the crack was fairly messy.

Good advise above on washing out cracks - they rarely come together the same, and they'll be some time in micro-fitting with magnifying glasses. Every splinter can count.

I'd probably not be using HHG, although there's always some on the bench!

[ProfChris]

I'd say HHG is a good choice here because there is a risk that s4mb4 might not quite align the pieces first go. In which case, heat plus a little moisture will separate the joint and he or she can try again without having to remove the glue residue.

I'd probably use Titebond, but only because I'd be confident* to get the joint aligned first time.


* not saying I'd definitely get it right, but I would be confident

[s4mb4]

If you post a photo you will probably get some good suggestions for clamping araingments.… peg head repairs can be some of the hardest repairs depending on whats going on, if there are areas where the the wood gets very thin at the end of the crack, those can be really hard to get back together cleanly …here is a complicated one I did recently, these clamps rubber pads help immensely... though more often than not, I use heavy rubber strips to do the clamping.

If it's a valuable instrument you might consider a professional.


Attachment 155750

I've made some cauls with those mouldable plastic beads. But you're right - where the wood gets thin at the nut it seems it's very hard to get it to sit flush. For a while I thought I might glue it in two stages, even though it's one crack. Dunno. I'll post a pic when I have a mo.

I could send it to a professional, but I quite like doing stuff myself if I feel able. Plus the guitar is not super expensive - it's one of the Jap-made Jackson Pro series.

[sunburst]

I'm starting to wonder how many people have actually had to reverse a hide glue joint.
It is not easy.
I once glued a tone bar to a mandolin top, and after removing the clamps, found that it had tilted slightly to one side and there was a tiny gap under one edge, right near the middle. It would have been fine, but I couldn't get it out of my mind so I decided to remove and re-glue the tone bar. I figured; it was just glued yesterday, it will pop right off of there with a little steam... Well, I steamed it and steamed it, probed with palette knifes, steamed it some more, probed some more, and finally decided I was introducing so much moisture to the top that it was not good and center seam damage could result, so I stopped and decided to carve the brace off of the top after everything dried.
After the top was dry, the next day, I checked the tone bar again and the gap was gone and the bar was stuck as tightly to the top as possible. The steam swelled the tone bar, the gap closed and the glue dried. I decided to leave the tone bar in place and it has been there, securely glued, to this day.

If the peghead is glued with HHG and the fit is not good, steaming it apart may not be easy at all, and in this case, carving away part of it is not a option. Rather than use one glue or another anticipating a poor fit, perhaps it is better to dry run the procedure enough times to assure a good fit instead.
The "friendly plastic" cauls are a good start. Anything to get the clamping force very close to 90 degrees to the break will definitely help with keeping things aligned during gluing and clamping.
Here's an example, and perhaps food for thought:


For the thin part near the nut, will the parts fit together with finger pressure? If so, wrapping with tape might do the trick. If it takes more than that, more creative use of friendly plastic might be in order. Guitar capos, hose clamps, there are usually several options for small clamps available that we don't tend to think of.

[Wes Brandt]

Here's the photo I was trying to post on #12.

I like your idea for gluing the broken scroll John.

[s4mb4]

So ultimately it seems that HHG _may_ offer the possibility of trying again if I get it wrong. And it may not. I've had a go at some other wood projects with Titebond and am quite impressed. Not sure what to do. Maybe I should make up some HHG and play around with it to get the feel for it.

So far I've made some cauls and practised my clamping. Seems okay. I'll post a pic when I have a mo.

Yes I think that some tape might do it for the narrow bit. But what kind? I don't imagine that I want anything that will bond too well to the wood. Electrician's tape?

[billhay4]

Titebond is reversible, too.
Bill

[Matt Harris]

There may be better options, but I've successfully use blue painters tape as a way to align glue joints on a number of occasions.

[sunburst]

I prefer the (rather expensive) binding tape that I buy from Stewmac, because it can be pulled tighter than regular masking tape, but I keep it in the shop for bindings anyway, so it is readily available to me. I wouldn't buy a roll just for this repair unless you think you can find a use for the rest of it.
You might have to clean up some gum residue from whatever tape you use, so something strong is most important. Come to think of it, I have some gaff tape (another expensive option) that would probably work great. Adhesive tape from the first aid kit should work.
Then, of course, there is the old standby; duct tape.

[s4mb4]

If I tape up the narrow bit, then presumably I'm not going to be able to guarantee that no excess glue comes out. Because it's only going to be pulled properly tight once it's obscured by the tape itself. Does this mean that I'm going to have to plan to do a bit of light sanding and then a varnish?

[sunburst]

...Does this mean that I'm going to have to plan to do a bit of light sanding and then a varnish?

It kind of depends upon what glue you use. You can probably get away with a simple clean-up.
Titebond will wash off of a finish, hide glue will too, but it sticks to finishes so tightly that it can cause damage as it dries.
(In fact, look up "glue chip" glass. Hide glue sticks to glass so well that is pulls chips out of the surface as it dries and shrinks. It can do the same thing to a finish.)

[CES]

I fixed the headstock scroll break on my Kentucky with Titebond and a clamping set up similar to John's probably 9 or 10 years ago, and it's still holding fine. I didn't bother with any finish touch up since it was my beater at the time, but it actually doesn't look too bad. I'd probably do the same if I were doing your repair, but I wouldn't want to make up HHG for such a small repair. If you're really just jonesing for experience with HHG, though, go for it! More important than the glue used, I would think, would be figuring out how to effectively and accurately clamp it.

Of course, I'm NOT a luthier, carpenter, etc...so pay way more attention to what those with experience are telling you than what I'm saying