Pinky question

[Mark Gunter]

I found your "reality check" test very interesting and enlightening, at this point I just take you at your word about the muscles & tendons, etc. because I'm not ready to follow that rabbit. But I really want to thank you for digging up that illustrative video, because I love to listen to, and to watch, both those players! That was an awesome recital.

I mentioned in an earlier post how both Brian Sutton and Tony Rice have a pretty impressive control over their fingertips, i.e., control over the proximity of each fingertip to the fretboard while playing. In this example, Brian's fingertips, including the pinky, rarely range far from the fretboard. The pinkie does fly away a bit at some points when not called upon, but not like mine, it flies far away seemingly of it's own accord and sometimes wants to curl below the neck a bit. I've tried each day for nearly a week now to focus on preventing this as much as possible, but it requires a great deal of attention to make a very little headway in this.

Concerning the OP, his question seemed to me to be about keeping the fingertips close to fretting position, rather than the general "use your pinkie to play music." I have been using my pinkie to play music for many years and have no problem with that, it's the resting position of the unused pinkie that gives me trouble. Your points about anatomy are well-taken, but I tend to believe that I can at least improve the resting position of the little finger with practice.

Also, as to the OP's original post, he mentioned a Thile video, and I went back and watched the relevant section of that video (I'd seen the whole thing several times before). What I noticed the past couple years after hearing CT talk about this is: When I watch CT's hands, I find that he himself doesn't do this. His pinkie is often out gathering wool a bit when not in use. Tony Rice and Brian Sutton are better examples in that regard IMO.

[catmandu2]

... the resting position of the unused pinkie...

In my experience, scale study kind of automatically took care of that. (In my case, classical guitar training - concerned as it is with economy of movement - provided me this facility - transferable to all other fretted strings)

[Beanzy]

The Mike Marshall video is a clear illustration of what Chris Thile refers to in his video, where people often angle the hand away from the line of the fretboard, giving the pinky no option but to move ot of position. He not only angles it away but also doesn't bring the wrist around under the neck further limiting its ability to stay in place, you can see how he repeatedly has to compensate for this by making a special effort to bring the wrist back in position to bring the pinky into play. It's an excellent reminder of how innefficiency doesn't preclude good playing, it just gives you more to overcome. However the OP was about aiming for the efficency refered to in the Chris Thile video. Mike Marshall does not have that.

Although most of us are talking about the detail of the hand and digits, you've got to start further up getting the wrist brought around to ensure you're not starting out already under tension in the hand ( think elbow rather than wrist)

[sblock]

The Mike Marshall video is a clear illustration of what Chris Thile refers to in his video, where people often angle the hand away from the line of the fretboard, giving the pinky no option but to move ot of position. He not only angles it away but also doesn't bring the wrist around under the neck further limiting its ability to stay in place, you can see how he repeatedly has to compensate for this by making a special effort to bring the wrist back in position to bring the pinky into play. It's an excellent reminder of how innefficiency doesn't preclude good playing, it just gives you more to overcome. However the OP was about aiming for the efficency refered to in the Chris Thile video. Mike Marshall does not have that.

Although most of us are talking about the detail of the hand and digits, you've got to start further up getting the wrist brought around to ensure you're not starting out already under tension in the hand ( think elbow rather than wrist)

You seem to be under the incorrect impression that by altering the wrist/hand position -- or even the elbow position -- the issue of a "flying pinky" somehow will go magically away. It likely won't. And you also seem to think this might be a matter of simply relaxing the "hand tension." It's not that, either. So, I'll say it one more time: this is not merely a matter of playing technique, Beanzy. For many players (but not all), it is a matter of human anatomy. No amount of training will ever "correct" it. Not that it needs to be corrected, mind you.

No one disputes that it is faster to position the fingertips as close to their next fingerboard destinations as possible when playing. This is true for all fretted instruments, and not just for the mandolin, by the way! So if you can manage it, fine. But it is simply not true that all players can manage this motion at all times with their pinky fingers. The pinky is intrinsically different from the other digits. When properly positioned by the hand and wrist, it can generally go down onto the fretboard under very good control, but when coming up from the fretboard, it's often tied to the ring finger in interesting ways. This holds true for many people, but not for all, and it depends on their personal tendon anatomy. So, just because one player you admire (say, CT) can do certain things with his pinky, that does not mean that all players can (see MM).

Please don't equate freer pinky motions with "bad technique," or as anything that requires correction. That's just wrong. Yes, you can train your pinky to reach those frets. But not everyone can train it what to do once the fingerboard is released, and the ring finger is engaged in its own motion. The ring finger and pinky are often tied together.

This is not about "efficient" vs. "inefficient" playing, either! There is no evidence that Mike Marshall's playing is in some way "less efficient" that any other great mandolinist. There would seem to be no evidence of that. He plays just as lyrically, just as fast, and just as challenging a repertoire as anyone else, I'd argue. And as others have already pointed out, even CT's pinky goes flying from time to time, too. This is not bad technique.

[catmandu2]

Having come up through the orthodoxy of classical pedagogy, i typically carried the orientation that the sanctity of economy of movement was rational - 'proper' and generally superior technique. Until I saw someone like Fritz Kreisler or Jascha Heifetz or someone - don't recall who it was - whose pinky was flailing about painfully (it appeared). I believe the orthodoxies of classical playing encompass many conventions - some even non-musical but rather dealing with aesthetics associated with traditional technique - "economy of movement" for example. (The physical compliance of position is something I endured, but fwiw wouldnt necessarily recommend unless a student is young or otherwise having problems with technique that 'correction' might solve). These physical aesthetics are part of classical orthodoxy, for better and worse.

[sblock]

Having come up through the orthodoxy of classical pedagogy, i typically carried the orientation that the sanctity of economy of movement was rational - 'proper' and generally superior technique. Until I saw someone like Fritz Kreisler or Jascga Heifetz - don't recall who it was - whose pinky was flailing about painfully (it appeared). I believe the orthodoxies of classical playing encompass many conventions - some even non-musical but rather dealing with aesthetics associated with traditional technique - "economy of movement" for example. (The coerced physical compliance of position is something I endured). These physical aesthetics are part of classical orthodoxy, for better and worse.

Very true, and well put! Classical technique is indeed best characterized as an "orthodoxy."

And yes, it was the immortal Jascha Heifetz who tended to keep his pinky straight out when it wasn't in direct use on the fingerboard, scarcely bent, and generally pointing away from -- gasp, and not towards! -- the fingerboard. UNorthodox, one might say. But I'm sure it was fully consistent with his personal anatomy, and also entirely "efficient," given what his body could (or could not) do. Check out this video of him, with incredible playing:

[Mark Gunter]

catmandu2, do you believe that the forced physical compliance of position, as regards the pinky, that you endured was not profitable - in the sense that it did not engender a generally superior technique in your playing? That economy of movement is really just for show? That seems to be the gist of what you wrote last.

[catmandu2]

catmandu2, do you believe that the forced physical compliance of position, as regards the pinky, that you endured was not profitable - in the sense that it did not engender a generally superior technique in your playing? That economy of movement is really just for show? That seems to be the gist of what you wrote last.

I highly value the skills I acquired from classical pedagogy - especially the technical chops: finger independence seems to me to be about the most valuable asset (drummers study independence too, etc). I was able to apply general technique to a host of stringed instruments - and always attributed the facility I enjoy playing (everything) to rigorous, formal guitar study.

I don't know that any of the refinements and conventions of orthodoxy are frivolous - they have a functional relation.

But heck I'm only an amateur - I never got very far performing - just local gigs, fun.

*So in answering, I'd say that any technique should either make you richer, further fulfill your artistic endeavors, or just enable more fun.

[Beanzy]

Sorry you're so confused about what I'm actually saying sblock.
I am talking about the original thread, control of the little finger and how to achieve it.
I also see you won't accept the clear evidence of the video you posted, where Mike Marshall moves his hand in exactly the way indicated by Chris Thile in his illustration of how people often cause the problem. I can't help you with that, you'd have to be open to the evidence you posted.

I'm certainly not advocating some type of classical orthodoxy either.
I am exactly the opposite of orthodox in building my techniques, I go for what is logical and efficient given my limitations.
With my fat fingers I've had to get creative with how I approach any fingering recommendations.
But I know from being a woeful finger flier in my early days that I am grateful for teachers who showed how to overcome that.
However, as a result of their insight, I do always advocate working with the body rather than allowing poor habits to cause unnecessary hurdles.
In this case as illustrated by CT and MM, changing the angle of the hand takes the pinky away from the fretboard, necessitating its return when needed, along with a corresponding change back of the angle.
The case of the MM video is quite clear that he is capable of placing the finger where he wants, even where the third finger is in a place where he previously had the pinky out of the way, so there doesn't seem to be any physical obstacle causing it.
Why he does that is not possible for me to determine from a video, only that he doesn't have any physical obstacle causing it.

As to people who do let the fingers fly, well I love to see when players who normally are very controlled decide to let fly, there have been a few good videos posted where that was highlighted. However where someone asks for advice about how to gain control, then it would be remiss not to be straight up in giving the experience which worked for me and many others. Especially when given by a teacher who spent ten years rebuilding his technique from scratch due to limitations he found then.
I'll stick to the op question and leave you to your diversions.

[billkilpatrick]

... Concerning the OP, his question seemed to me to be about keeping the fingertips close to fretting position, rather than the general "use your pinkie to play music." I have been using my pinkie to play music for many years and have no problem with that, it's the resting position of the unused pinkie that gives me trouble. Your points about anatomy are well-taken, but I tend to believe that I can at least improve the resting position of the little finger with practice.

Also, as to the OP's original post, he mentioned a Thile video, and I went back and watched the relevant section of that video (I'd seen the whole thing several times before). What I noticed the past couple years after hearing CT talk about this is: When I watch CT's hands, I find that he himself doesn't do this. His pinkie is often out gathering wool a bit when not in use. Tony Rice and Brian Sutton are better examples in that regard IMO.

Grazie, Mark - fingertips close to the fingerboard was what I was concerned with. I started using the little finger when I stumbled on Ted Eschilman's FFcp exercises - learning (ha!) to play the fiddle helped as well. All I can tell you is (a) the figure "8" shaped rubber band looped around the ring and little finger seems to help and (b) the tendon extensor of my digitus annula'ris has made itself known to me.

[Ausdoerrt]

For some players, the pinky will fly up. For others, not so much. And this is mostly a matter of personal anatomy, not pinky training.

From my experience with the violin, it IS a matter of training. Most beginners have their pinky fly up, primarily due to excess tension in the left hand. With training, you don't see it so much anymore. And I'm speaking from personal experience here.

Now, mandolin is a bit different, because you don't get to use the pinky quite as much (especially in folky styles like bluegrass). However, if you want to imitate Thile, I'd say pinky training is pretty much required.

And yes, it was the immortal Jascha Heifetz who tended to keep his pinky straight out when it wasn't in direct use on the fingerboard, scarcely bent, and generally pointing away from -- gasp, and not towards! -- the fingerboard. UNorthodox, one might say. But I'm sure it was fully consistent with his personal anatomy, and also entirely "efficient," given what his body could (or could not) do.

Any classical teacher worth his/her salt would respond with something like, "If you can play like Heifetz, you can play however the heck you like. Since you can't (yet), you should learn the "standard" technique first."

Also, just because a player is famous/"good", doesn't mean he's automatically perfect at everything. They're just better at compensating for their weaknesses. For example, there are several "great" violinists known for poor staccato technique.

[Nick Gellie]

Well I am of the Chris Thile persuasion. My pinkie stays close to the fingerboard and it is ready to strike whether it is the middle or ring finger that either precede or follow it. By the way I play fiddle so I am used to this attack on the fingerboard.

[sblock]

No one, and especially not me, has advocated AGAINST positioning the pinky in a curled, "ready" position as near to the fretboard -- and to the next note that it will fret -- as possible. And the same goes for all the other fingers. This is proper classical technique, and it holds for playing folk music as well. It is also considered to be "efficient," in the sense that it requires less movement to engage the finger on the fret --- but that can be a little misleading, because a great many other things contribute to speed and efficiency, and pinky positioning is not usually rate-limiting for achieving high playing speed.

What I have been pointing out is that flyaway pinkies can happen for some players, and that this is a matter of personal anatomy. Yes, some players will have the ability to retrain their pinkies not to do this, because they have the musculature and tendon structure to do it. But some will not, and no amount of training and practice will fix it. Those of you who are able to train your pinky seem to find it hard to believe that people exist who are not able to do that! But these people DO exist, and some of them are terrific players.

Not all traditional playing advice is good advice! In this modern era, those who are teachers, or offer playing advice, are well advised to understand about anatomical variations a bit better, and not insist on people doing things that they can't. So this is just a friendly reminder about that. And it might be news for some of you out there. I do not want us to dispute about the best ways to play. I just want us to understand one another a little better -- and that includes understanding the other person's anatomy, too.

[T.D.Nydn]

Basically,,your either born to do it or not...

[JeffD]

The Mike Marshall video is a clear illustration of what Chris Thile refers to in his video, where people often angle the hand away from the line of the fretboard, giving the pinky no option but to move ot of position. He not only angles it away but also doesn't bring the wrist around under the neck further limiting its ability to stay in place, you can see how he repeatedly has to compensate for this by making a special effort to bring the wrist back in position to bring the pinky into play.)

First - there is not a player on the earth whose technique could not be improved.

Two - there are not two players on the earth who play exactly alike.

Three - great players sometimes have quirky techniques that mediocre players like myself would do well to avoid. How they do what they do, and can do, need not be a model for what we should try and do.

Four - I think it ridiculous to be critical of world class players because their technique is not that advocated by other world class players. (I personally think it ridiculous to be critical of any experienced player's technique.)

Five - my apologies for being a curmudgeon this morning. I woke up and found we had run out of coffee, and half and half, and yogurt. I mean come on...

[AlanN]

I just checked. My standard stance is pinky curled, hovering over the fingerboard, close to and ready to pounce on a fret. I tried to have it point up, could hardly do it.

And Jeff, those 3 items you mention. Absolute staples in my household. If they went missing...well, I shudder to think....

[billkilpatrick]

... quirky techniques ...

I feel a Social Group coming on ...

[Jim1hays]

I have a similar issue. I broke the knuckle on my left hand middle finger and had surgery to re-align it. I am now having to retrain the hand by running multiple scales as fast as I can until I feel a burning in my finger. This is the only way I can get back to playing. I too cannot get into the full G chop chord as a result.

[Bertram Henze]

I feel a Social Group coming on ...

I'll register in advance, if that is possible. The name of the group could be Don't Try This At Home! or Mandolin Kamasutra.

[Jacob]

The thumb has its own tendon.
First finger and pinkie each has a separate tendon.
However, our middle and ring fingers share a tendon, not the ring and pinkie.

Robert Schumann became a composer because he failed as a pianist.
He was eager to make his mark, and to try to speed up the process he constructed a weird device using a cigar box and some wire.
It was intended to prop up his fingers while practicing, the idea being to strengthen them and develop independence.
But instead, two fingers on his right hand were permanently injured.

Of the fingers in the human hand, why is the ring finger the most difficult to control?
Four Fingers: Three Tendons and a Thumb
5 Things You Never Knew About Schumann

[Beanzy]

Jeff I'm not being critical of M M . What would be the merit in that? I'm analysing what I see and applying it to the example given in light of the control being looked for. MM doesn't bother with that control, and uses less efficiency to achieve the end result, and we've all got plenty of enjoyment from that approach. CT tries for the most efficient technique. Perhaps that's why his movements take their exhuberance elsewhere, leading to people commenting on his stage movements. However technique and improvement need analasys if they are to be persued. If they're not an objective then no point wasting effort better spent on other areas.

That is why I highlighted the defficiency in trying to understand the movement of your hand by holding the hand out straight.
It's not going to give you a true picture of the movement or control you could have when playing with a relaxed lightly curled hand as we do. The range is different when the other finger is giving it more slack. As per my original point the control part of the pinky comes from not forcing it to remain in place as it will then have to engage the strength of its neighbour and you've exaserbated the issue. However practicing using the technique I outlined by relaxing it enables you to become accoustomed to leaving the finger idle when it has no immediate use. It's not held there, it is just left suspended, almost detached. I suppose because we are used to making an effort to put the pinky down then if we don't accustom it to a resting position, we're still going to be engaging it when the other finger moves meaning it has to move with it.
Remembering back to when this was an issue for me I would often suddenly snag it closed, so would make sure it got out of the way rather than risk that. That meant I was continually having to control the pinky as I removed it from the area then I had to bring it in faster while making more effort to locate it properly, and I could often get cramped up across the back of the hand. By habituating it to just stay relaxed and not engage until needed the back of the hand tension disappeared.

Again this isn't like exercises to force yourself to have classical guitar reach or a span like Rachmaninov, it's the reverse. It's disengaging the tension while giving it a neutral home position. The damping exercise helps to locate it while also giving it a purpose, so you learn how to engage it then relax regardless of any other activity going on at the time.

[sblock]

... However practicing using the technique I outlined by relaxing it enables you to become accoustomed to leaving the finger idle when it has no immediate use. It's not held there, it is just left suspended, almost detached. I suppose because we are used to making an effort to put the pinky down then if we don't accustom it to a resting position, we're still going to be engaging it when the other finger moves meaning it has to move with it...

Sigh. The part that you still don't seem to get, despite all that's been written previously in this thread, is that it is simply NOT POSSIBLE, and certainly not through any type of "relaxation" (!), for some people to leave their pinky "idle" (and suspended in air) when it's not in active use. That's because while their pinky is supposed to be idle, they're actively using their ring finger to fret, and this finger shares part of a tendon, and also some musculature, with their pinky! Move the ring finger, and the pinky will also tend to move, too -- whether they will it to, or not. The only way to keep the pinky from moving, in such cases, would be to have it in contact with the fingerboard, which dampens the sympathetic motion. Hence the well-known phenomenon of the "flyaway pinky," which happens for some great mandolinists (like Mike Marshall) and also some great violinists (like Jascha Heifetz). This is not a matter of a failure to "relax." This is not a matter of their "poor" technique. This is a matter of personal anatomy. Just because YOU can keep your pinky curled and still while moving your ring finger does not mean that everyone can!!

Some folks, like you, have the tendons and musculature to suppress a flyaway pinky by sheer dint of practice, and through the relaxation of certain muscles, combined with careful positioning of the hand. And some folks cannot. But this seems to be the point that you just don't get.

Try to understand that not everyone is built just like you, and you may become more sympathetic. And perhaps less proscriptive about technique?

Regardless, a flyaway pinky has never stopped anyone from becoming a great musician.

[Beanzy]

Sblock you seem to think I'm being proscriptive. i'm not I'm offering a description of a technique that I clearly say has worked for me, in response to a request for techniques that people have experience of.
You also seem to think I don't accept the assertions you have been making. If you bother to read my posts properly you'll see you have built your own straw man and are having a wonderful time knocking it. I merely did not engage with any of your assertions as they have no bearing on my posts or the original request for advice. I ignore irrelevant contributions. The only point of yours I did take issue with was your flawed 'reality' check using an unrealistic test.

[sblock]

Sblock you seem to think I'm being proscriptive. i'm not I'm offering a description of a technique that I clearly say has worked for me, in response to a request for techniques that people have experience of.
You also seem to think I don't accept the assertions you have been making. If you bother to read my posts properly you'll see you have built your own straw man and are having a wonderful time knocking it. I merely did not engage with any of your assertions as they have no bearing on my posts or the original request for advice. I ignore irrelevant contributions. The only point of yours I did take issue with was your flawed 'reality' check using an unrealistic test.

Well, at least we agree about something: You're perfectly correct in declaring that you have been unresponsive and have ignored much of what has been written in this thread, having personally deemed it "irrelevant." That's absolutely correct. But it's no way to hold a meaningful discussion. Talking past people, or not listening to them, is not a good way to contribute to MC threads.

There was nothing "flawed" about the test I offered for others to try, which is a standard test that is well known to physiologists. I didn't invent it. You deemed it flawed/irrelevant because it was not out of a playing position. By dismissing it in this way, you missed the point of the test entirely. The test is intended to show that our fingers are connected and that they cannot execute entirely independent motions. It also illustrates, for many people, peculiar aspects of their personal anatomy, as well as some range-of-motion issues. And it works perfectly well for its intended purpose. It is not some "musical position" test to explore fretting motions -- and it was never represented a such. You just misconstrued it, and you misrepresented it when you complained that it was flawed because it used hand positions not involved in fretting. Sorry, but you were way off base with that complaint!

Things work better on the Cafe when we acknowledge one another's viewpoints, and don't talk past them. You don't have to agree, but you ought not ignore.

[Mark Gunter]

Things work better on the Cafe when ...

Sounds like a topic we could have some fun with.