Is it a good choice pick a Neapolitan mandolin for Irish Music?

[orsocosta]

Hello, everyone, I'm new here and in mandolin's world. I'm Thomas from Italy.
Recently I started taking mandolin lesson with the purpose to learn to play Irish music. I haven't found near my town a teacher that could teach me that particular style, but I found a Classical one; I enjoying learn from him and I'm thinking to buy a bowl back mandolin.

My doubt is this. If I haven't misunderstood, people play Irish music with flat top mandolin, do you think a Neapolitan mandolin is a right purchase for what I would like to play in the future?

[Beanzy]

I use my 1922 Calace bowl back mandolin for much of my trad Irish playing as I find the sound really suits the fast tunes. For waltz, ballad, harp tunes & lyrical or sean ós playing I prefer the sustain of my carved top instruments. My main playing partner for Irish trad and all his family have always used bowl backs for their playing.

There is a bit of a movement from across the Atlantic to try to define something called a Celtic mandolin. This seems heavily influenced by the large noisy sessions which have become very popular since the folk revival days. You aren't in a situation where that's an issue, by the sounds of it you'll be lucky to find a few pals who will get together with you to play a bit of trad.

I would say learn the music & use whatever instrument you can get your hands on. If you ever head over to Ireland you'll see people tend to use whatever the shops have at a good price for the quality. Due to the recent popularity of carved top instruments many are using A & F type carved top instruments, but the availability of good flat topped instruments at a decent price has those coming through more.

When people get to buying a higher quality instrument then there are no bowl back builders there so it tends not to be available as a choice so unlike previous times they are a fading entity in Ireland.

[JeffD]

I think ultimately it doesn't matter. My personal preference is that arch top mandolins, A or F, sound too bluegrassy for traditional Irish music. I can't unhear that creamy Gibsonny sound, and it sticks out, IMO, at an Irish session. Which is why I would lean towards a flatty or a bowl.

But that is me, and lots of folks will insightfully disagree with me.

[James Rankine]

Hi Thomas, welcome to the cafe. It doesn't matter what type of instrument you are learning on as long as it is well set up -it's how you play it that is going to be important. Stick with your classical teacher and a bowlback and learn some good basic technique, but I can really recommend Marla Fibish on peghead nation who will get you into the drive/feel/pulse/lift (add you own description) of Irish music. Later on if your playing with others in a loud session you might even find yourself playing the tenor banjo (many of us here have taken that route). How you play is more important than than the instrument you play.

[orsocosta]

Thank you, everyone

[Mandophile]

Well, I'll be a tad silly here but I feel it's an abomination to use a Neapolitan luthier's expertise and hard work for anything other than Italian-based music or classical. I'm not saying that the Neapolitan mandolin can't render Celtic music any better(or worse) but I am saying that a Neapolitan bowl back mandolin is designed for the music it "grew up with." It is created for that music and personally, I would not want to see it used for Celtic music. Call me an "originalist" or a purest! or just a little nutty in California! That's how I see it. Honor your country's own "roots" music with the instrument made to fulfill its potential!

[JeffD]

Well, I'll be a tad silly here but I feel it's an abomination to use a Neapolitan luthier's expertise and hard work for anything other than Italian-based music or classical. !

Are you saying the bowl is inappropriate for Celtic because it is capable of so much more, or inappropriate because its "classical" sound would stick out in an traditional session?

[Mandophile]

I like the dichotomy you present but I wouldn't want to participate in culture wars or take any sides per se. Just a biased opinion to spark conversation. I'll wade in when I've heard a few more informed opinions to see where it gets us.

[JeffD]

Well I guess what I mean is that if your objection is that the bowl is capable of so much more and it is criminal to limit it to ITM, my response would be that all mandolins are capable of so much more than what they are being used for. Nobody would argue the truth of this when applied to guitar, but it comes as a revelation to some that a mandolin can and does do it all.

If your objection was that the "classical" sound of the mandolin doesn't fit, I can see that. I don't think it is too much of a sonic distraction, (as I do the arch top ff hole F5 mandolin), but that is more my ears than the instrument. If I had more classical mandolin under my belt I might find that what the sound of a bowl evokes for me distracts me from the Celtic music.

But in reality, the mandolin is such a newcomer to ITM, and so none of us have had the centuries of experience to make a decision.

[Beanzy]

About as relevant as saying a Ferrari shouldn't drive on an American highway.

[fatt-dad]

that Flatbush woman is quite a talent in the Irish scene! She plays on a paddle-head teens Gibson, oval-hole, a-model (arched top).

I play Irish, classical and old-time on my Gibson paddle head.

I love my Flatiron 1N (a flat-top mandolin). I prefer my Gibson A3 though.

Just a few thoughts. I just don't know about the bowl backs. I just don't see it in my future, however. I do enjoy the messy, loud and rackus jams. I also enjoy my duet efforts.

I'm not a professional and will unlikely get there!

f-d

[Jeff Hildreth]

Not Irish but out of the norm for bowl back use..
Aco Bocina has been a long time favorite of mine.. He placed 2nd at Walnut Valley a few years back.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1qQ8_Aq6CM

[Mandophile]

nice metaphor, Beanzy!

[Randi Gormley]

I recall reading somewhere that the bowlback was used for ITM in Ireland way back when, it being the only mandolin available. So there's that. Modern bowlbacks certainly can be loud instruments and they do have more sustain than a lot of ff-hole models. As has been said, it's how you play the instrument, not necessarily the instrument itself. I will say that I've never been to a session where anybody cared what the instrument looked like, but I've heard (in passing) that some other sessions are ruled by people who will say something. Me, I'd just ignore it, but it does exist. As soon as you start playing, as long as you're within the tradition, I'd think very few people would object to what your mandolin looked like.

[DavidKOS]

Are you saying the bowl is inappropriate for Celtic because it is capable of so much more, or inappropriate because its "classical" sound would stick out in an traditional session?

Well I guess what I mean is that if your objection is that the bowl is capable of so much more and it is criminal to limit it to ITM, my response would be that all mandolins are capable of so much more than what they are being used for.

As has been said, it's how you play the instrument, not necessarily the instrument itself.

As one that was reading this thread and chuckling about the OP being in Italy and wanting to use the local instrument for other styles of music.

Well, as an American that has used bowl back mandolins to play any and every sort of music - including a wee bit of ITM - and has been a champion of the bowl, I can say that it doesn't matter.

Play any music on any mandolin that you have.

But I did find it a bit ironic overall.

And yes, the mandolin was used a bit in Ireland (and of course there would have been bowl backs) but it seems the tenor banjo took on popularity before the modern mandolin "Celtic" tradition really got going.

[des]

Well, I'll be a tad silly here but I feel it's an abomination to use a Neapolitan luthier's expertise and hard work for anything other than Italian-based music or classical. I'm not saying that the Neapolitan mandolin can't render Celtic music any better(or worse) but I am saying that a Neapolitan bowl back mandolin is designed for the music it "grew up with." It is created for that music and personally, I would not want to see it used for Celtic music. Call me an "originalist" or a purest! or just a little nutty in California! That's how I see it. Honor your country's own "roots" music with the instrument made to fulfill its potential!

Barney McKenna played a bowl back .........

[Ky Slim]

I know it's a little different than a neapolitan mando but Andy Irvine played a bowl back zouk sometimes.

[Ausdoerrt]

I'm with the "It's how you use it" crowd. The choice of strings, pick, and most importantly technique all affect the sound as much as instrument make.

Plus I think Irish traditional calls for a more trebl-y and sustain-y sort of sound rather than the bass-y percussive of bluegrass. Paddles and oval holes fit that bill, but so do the bowlbacks. And they'll probably have an easier time cutting through a loud session.

That said, when I play with a small acoustic group (just guitar and flute), I tend to opt more and more in favor of my f-hole a-style, because I feel it gives me a richer sound and a wider range of options rather than sticking to playing melody.

[DavidKOS]

I know it's a little different than a neapolitan mando but Andy Irvine played a bowl back zouk sometimes.

And helped begin the whole Irish bouzouki phase of musical instruments in doing so.

Nice to see a reminder of where it came from.

[Bren]

And helped begin the whole Irish bouzouki phase of musical instruments in doing so.

That would be Andy's fellow Sweeney's man Johnny Moynihan.

Where are you in Italy, orsocosta?

[DavidKOS]

That would be Andy's fellow Sweeney's man Johnny Moynihan.

All the better, thanks for the info.

[mrmando2015]

I play primarily Celtic music. I have a bowlback and also a flat top. I've performed and also been to sessions with both. Both work for the music, and no one has complained about my choice of instrument. Also, bowlbacks have a great sound for fast dancing music. Play the music you love on the instrument you love. You will work harder at it and enjoy it more.

[crisscross]

Honor your country's own "roots" music with the instrument made to fulfill its potential!

Tell this to Benny Goodman.


Clarinets were soon accepted into orchestras. Later models had a mellower tone than the originals. Mozart (d. 1791) liked the sound of the clarinet (he considered its tone the closest in quality to the human voice) and wrote numerous pieces for the instrument.,[57] and by the time of Beethoven (c. 1800–1820), the clarinet was a standard fixture in the orchestra(From Wikipedia: Clarinet)

There are instruments as different as violins, wooden flutes, concertinas, bouzoukis or banjos used to play Irish music, the sonic difference between a bowlback and an archtop mandolin seems rather small to me...

[Mandophile]

I'm learning so much from everyone. I think that each instrument varies even with its own family or made by the same luthier. As I listen to Chris Thile on PHC, I'm trying to guess what he is playing...and then I'm reminded of that famous blind test that was done. Recall it? The one where they took a vintage Stradivarius and then a violin made in the 20th century. The results seemed to indicate that no one (I believe violinists weighed in) could tell the difference. Just found the link:
http://www.npr.org/sections/deceptiv...pick-the-strad

[Bren]

I was told the other day that dendrochronologists or somesuch had analysed Stradivari instruments and found that the wood was seldom, or never, more than four years old when he built them, and often greener than that.